r/warcraftlore • • 5d ago

Weekly Newbie Thread- Ask A Lore Expert

1 Upvotes

Feel free to post any questions or queries here!

Also check out our list of answers to Frequently Asked Questions!


r/warcraftlore • • 6d ago

Versus! Debating Warcraft Lore Power Levels!

1 Upvotes

This is our weekend power level debate mega-thread! Feel free to pit two or more characters/forces/magics/whatever against each other in the comments below. Example: Arthas v Illidan, Void v Fel, Mankirk's Wife v Nameless Quillboar.

We'll do this every weekend, so don't think you need to use up all of your favorite premises at once. Though, it is also OK to have a repeating premise, as these threads are designed to allow for recurring content to not fill the sub too often.

Reminder, these debates should be fun. There is often no right answer when comparing two enemies of a similar power tier, and hypothetically any situation a Blizzard writer creates could tip the scales of any encounter and our debates of course will not matter. These posts should just look something like a game of Superfight. You pick a character, you make the strongest case for how strong they are, or why they could beat another character, argue back and forth with someone else, and just let others decide who had the better argument. But remember that no matter how heated your debate gets, always follow rule #6. No bad behavior.

Previous weeks: https://old.reddit.com/r/warcraftlore/search/?q=%22Versus%21+Debating+Warcraft+Lore+Power+Levels%21%22&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new


r/warcraftlore • • 4h ago

I like how Arthas, Grom and Illidan have flowers associated with them.

23 Upvotes

The first creates a defensive potion that harms those who attack you and makes them die faster so long as they keep doing so. Very on brand.

The second is used in all manner of strength boosting, rage inducing, anti-demon potions and more.

The third, its not even named after him nor is found in the world, but shows what kept him somewhat intact throughout ten thousand years, and the power thereof. It boosts your healing power.

And then there is Khadgar's fuckin whisker ig.


r/warcraftlore • • 7h ago

So why can't Arthas raise frostmourne and gain control over foresaken?

13 Upvotes

Shouldn't forsaken be a liability of being re-possessed by the lich king whenever he feels like it?


r/warcraftlore • • 15h ago

Discussion Where did Kael's hate against the draenei in TBC come from?

34 Upvotes

Sorry but I don't get it. In WC3, it was Kael who suggested Illidan to help Akama's village in exchange for their help. Nor did he have any beef with Akama in the rest of the plot. At that time, the draenei were only a broken small tribe as well.

OK suddenly in TBC, when they did nothing to him, he joined the legion and took their ship, then he suddenly hates them so much? That's just out of character like the rest of his TBC plot.


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Liadrin's Sword

114 Upvotes

Hello,

Am I dumb to not understand why Salandria, who barely know us, would give us her mother's sword who also barely knew us, or worse if we're alliance or death knight, we tried to kill her a few times.

Why wouldnt she want to keep it

I understand blizzard wanting us to have the skin, but it wouldnt be the first time they give us the appearance of a weapon that we do not possess canonically


r/warcraftlore • • 19h ago

Could a forsaken blend into a group of scourge?

33 Upvotes

Basically the title. I am inclined to believe they can't, but Sylvanas ambushed Arthas with her banshees in the frozen throne. The lich king did alert him but they were surrounded by troops that didn't notice


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

12.1.5 gave me another reason to hate Shadowlands Spoiler

417 Upvotes

We could literally just ask Venari to take us to the Shadowlands and ask The Arbiter where Liadrin went or even ask to speak with her. Maybe even ask to see if she could come back, in spirit form, to Azeroth. Before everyone is like “but we can’t go to the Shadowlands in canon anymore because the portal closed”. Venari has already made it clear she can open a portal to the Shadowlands whenever she wants, she did so when Arator went to find Sylvanas. Taz’avesh can also transport to the Shadowlands on a whim and I’m pretty sure they owe us big time for giving their world soul back to Venari.

I feel like the concept of death in WoW is just ruined now because the Shadowlands may as well just be another planet people get sent to when they “die”. And we could visit anytime we want with the right help


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Discussion [Spoilers] 12.1.7 New Pantheon Lore (Lorewalking Quest) Spoiler

160 Upvotes

The new Dornogal stuff is kinda nothing cuz the big info is encrypted. Tyr visits Dornogal. You go to Uldaman and loot Archaedas’ corpse (which has a new model) for his security disc to see if you can get access to the Coreway. This unlocks a new Archive but it's encrypted. But lorewalking is on PTR

But there are some new lore scenarios and reveals in the Titans lorewalking. I’m going to focus on the new stuff and not the quests we replay.

The Titans

  • We cover: The deaths of Archaedas and Discs of Norgannon. The Archive in Halls of Stone. Parts of the Archaedas archive in TWW. This all focuses on the deviations of the dwarves and titanforged race. Compare Thraegar transformation and curse of flesh of two forms of deviations. Then transition to Algalon’s stuff in 3.1. It just follows the quest up to Rhonin’s speech without any change.
  • There is a potential implication for the wording that the Old Gods may not have been responsible for the curse of flesh. But it may also just be awkward wording to compare the Thraegar and Dwarves as two variants.
  • Lili foreshadows “how far will the Titans go to retain control of Azeroth”.
  • Then jump to the Pantheon themselves. “Worldsouls are often beset by demons, Void and more. Two of the Pantheon were charged with eradicating these threats by force”. (See sections below)

The Battle of Frachtorn

  • Lili says this info comes from Algalon, who was called to battle. Features when Sargeras told Aggramar about the void corrupted worldsoul he destroyed (previously detailed in Chronicles but has some brief amendments to recent lore and has a setting).
  • Takes place on the planet Frachtorn, you play a memory as a Constellar, led by Olviron the Sentinel. Sargeras and Aggramar have called the Constellar to help battle the void.
  • They are both giants standing in the background fighting equally sized void monsters. MASSIVE models (but not planet sized).
  • Sargeras voices doubts that they have fought this battle on world after world and what if there was no end. “What do you mean, each world saved could be another sister or brother to welcome”.
  • Sargeras: “You do not know what I have seen, Aggramar. When the void swallows a Worldsoul entirely there is no more hope…. The creature that emerged from the void-touched worldsoul…the horror was unspeakable.” So it sounds like a void titan was waking up on the world.
  • Aggramar says if Sargeras found a worldsoul fall to the void, they should call the Pantheon to cleanse it. Sargeras tells Aggramar he decimated that void corrupted world entirely. He left nothing for the void to claim.
  • Aggramar freaks out, cites what about its native lifeforms. Or if it was “The Prime”. Lili mentions its good Sargeras left Aggramar cuz he’d have instantly destroyed Azeroth if he was there when it was discovered.

The Confrontation with the Legion

  • Algalon gave the lorewalkers this info. He received it when getting in touch with other Constellars post-Wrath.
  • Covers the confrontation of the Pantheon and the now fel-scarred Sargeras who started the Legion. It is set at the Seat of the Pantheon. Aggramar asks Constellar to fight demons so Pantheon can talk him out of this.
  • Pantheon tells Sargeras about Azeroth, which “could be the Prime” and defeat the Void Lords. Straight from Chronicle.
  • Sargeras wants to destroy it, claiming if the Void seizes its power it will become something even greater than a Void Lord.
  • Aggramar mentions their oaths to protect all creation. Aggramar says what were all their battles for if not fellowship. Sargeras kills him because the weight of all worlds sits on their shoulders.
  • Sargeras mentions the Pantheon has no idea what they face and what he has shielded them from.

After their Fall & Antorus

  • Lili confirms that Sargeras killed them and the fragments of their souls escaping from Chronicle. Lili sorta explains what happened after where Chronicle & Legion are unclear. “There, they inhabited the titan keepers that the Pantheon had tasked with watching over the world. Hidden away, they remained there for thousands of years…until Sargeras located their soul fragments and captured them, one by one.”
  • So canonizes their tweets from Legion where it was suggested Sargeras found the soul fragments when they attacked Ulduar and other titan facilities during their attacks. He got the fragments from Azeroth. Presumably attacked Wrathion to get Aman’thuls.
  • Lili seems to suggest Eonar escaped Antorus to her sanctuary in Legion. I guess to make it fit.
  • We fight Aggramar and Argus. Lili has some narration in the Argus fight. She says that bound by Aman’thul, Argus sent his own twisted Constellars into battle to buy time and regain his strength.
  • Ending note: “Yet, it’s clear that the titans care about Azeroth’s worldsoul above all else. We must not forget the re-origination we narrowly escaped. Despite all the good they have done for us, we must ask ourselves: is the Pantheon’s vision for our future all that different from what Sargeras desires?”

r/warcraftlore • • 23h ago

Throwing orcs at the problem

22 Upvotes

I was just catching up on some of the campaign missions the other night that I missed since I haven’t logged in a while. At one point one of the Blood Elf leaders(Sorry don’t remember who exactly) says “I never thought I’d miss the times when we could just throw orcs at the problem.”

So I’m just wondering, why aren’t the Alliance and Horde leadership more involved in the events?? Have they given any reason why it’s only elves, trolls and warriors of light showing up? I get that that those factions are the focus and the initial invasion happens quickly but Xal threatens all of Azeroth. Shouldn’t everyone on Azeroth be banding together at this point?

I liked in TWW post campaign when both sides forces show up near Dornogal. Did I miss something as to why the Alliance and Horde are only sending adventurers or is it just sub par writing to fit the Elf and Troll band together storyline?


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Discussion Sin'Dorei lore was the only reason I was keeping up with Retail lore anymore. I can't believe I let this game disappoint me again. (Rant/Vent)

68 Upvotes

Ever since I was a kid I've been in love with the Blood Elf aesthetic and lore. My brother is 8 years older than me and bought WoW when it first came out. I was 4 years old wiggling the mouse to ensure that the family computer wouldn't sleep while each disk installed. I then proceeded to mine and herb for my older brother until he allowed me to make my own character which was a Nelf hunter that I proceeded to get to like level 33 by the time TBC came out.

When TBC came out I was immediately enamored and enthralled with the Blood Elves, and I have been Horde since, nearly 20 years now. I was 7 then, as you can imagine I started actually understanding the world around me and how to actually play the game and this expac was the first that I reached max level in (Didn't raid till Wrath tho).

I read every quest text, every dialogue line, read everything I could to understand the lore and then went back to Warcraft 3 to see what led to this all.

The Sin'Dorei were SO cool. And yeah, I understand the criticism of not understanding why they chose the Horde over the alliance but I think Grand Marshal Garithos and his genocide in Dalaran may have had something to do with that, especially because my favorite character in all of WoW lore, and Grand Magister of Quel'Thelas, Rommath was literally there. I think that's often forgotten about. Rommath was there with Kael'Thas, literally as one of his advisors and confidants. He went to Outland to escape certain death. One of the few Characters around still that HAS been to outland.

Fast forward a little, Rommath comes back to Azeroth and he and Astalor (another cool as fuck character Blizzard is going to kill off probably) do one of the most insane magical feats in all of Warcraft in draining a Narru of it's light to give to their people as a power source. Creating the Blood Knights, with Liadrin as their Matriarch.

Liadrin's later remorse for this is well documented but is one of my favorite stories personally, M'uru 's core restoring the sunwell by way of Prophet Velen is something that is a core memory for most people here who care about the lore.

Liadrin would be a mainstay in Blood Elf representation in nearly every expac after, even when characters such as Halduron Brightwing, Grand Magister Rommath, and even Lor'Themar take the backseat. She was the rep for the lore I held so dear.

Legion comes along (lets not talk about WoD), and my god my love for the lore is reignited again. Holy shit what an expansion. Yes, not perfect. Tirion's death should've been handled better and there's a plethora of things I would've personally done differently with the Death Knight storyline (but that's a story for another time).

The blood elf lore was flowing in this expac, and their story with the Nightborne who had so many similarities really made me remember why I fell in love with the lore of this game. I can and did forgive some of the bad writing in Legion because the Highs were much much higher than the lows, and much higher than they've been since Wrath - at least for me personally.

The story between the Shal'Dorei and Sin'Dorei enthralled me, just like it did 10 years prior. And Lady Liadrin, once again was front and center.

For the sake of brevity of this already long post, I'm going to skip to midnight.

I was going to buy midnight, I haven't played Retail since Shadowlands (For obvious reasons) and I've kept up with the lore watching Nobbel and other lore youtubers because part of me still cares. Midnight being set in Quel'Thelas? Getting a revamp??? Then Blizzard unjustly closed my account on a false pretense lol. I was playing classic and got perma banned which they later said was a mistake. Took nearly two months to get unbanned and I lost out on Atiesh because of it. C'est la vie but I didn't feel like rewarding blizzard with my hard earned money after that.

But once again... I've been keeping up. My boy Rommath back in the limelight for the first time really since MoP and i've been loving it. As a Horde fanboy I've been a Ren'Dorei (Void Elf) hater, not because I don't think they should exist because I'm glad that Alliance finally got a version of High Elves to play as - but because of Umbric and the story regarding him. I always found him pompus and arrogant and wrong about many things. Rommath has a track record of being right - for example and not to rehash a contentious topic - but he planned for an eventual SECOND purge of Dalaran given the fact he was there for the first. His planning single handedly saved Aethas' and his Sunreavers' Asses.

And before you all go on about how I just said Umbric was pompous and arrogant but love Rommath, let me finish here. My favorite thing about Midnight has been Rommath and Umbric. They're cut from the same cloth and both are staunchly protective of what they believe in. Giving no ground to the opposition. Both had very valid points on why they believed what they did, Rommath was right to be cautious of Dar'Khan Drathir was working on, but Umbric was right in that there was ways to harness it that wasn't entirely bad.

Umbric getting his lab back in Silvermoon (that was left untouched btw) was the sort of wholesome that I wasn't expecting but loved. It added so much depth to a character that I already loved, and a character I didn't.

And then they do this. They kill off Liadrin. Why? Not sure.

People are rightfully calling out the quality of the writing regarding it, comparing it to Tirion, Cairne, Vol'jin.

But I just don't get it. I've criticized Blizzard's lack of risk taking for many years now. The need for councils instead of set leaders, letting cool titles lie dormant, and overwhelming need for friendship between the Horde and Alliance as a whole.

I hoped for risk taking in Midnight. I hoped the Amani and Sin'dorei would let bygones be bygones (with better writing lol), I hoped that Lor'themar would be crowned King of Quel'Thelas, finally letting go of all the Trauma both he and his people experienced all those years ago, agreeing to move forward. I hoped that Thaylssra likewise would be crowned Queen of her respective kingdom. I hoped that she and Rommath being the two most powerful mages horde side would allow their magisters to be a force to be reckoned with in future conflicts (Alliance or otherwise).

Brining back Kith'ix, something I thought would be cool turned out to be objectively a horribly written scenario, and not just because of Liadrin's death. Dear god was that awful to watch.

Someone in this subreddit said the lore of Midnight is not bad, per se, but its execution and delivery have at times been shadowlands-esque and I could not agree more.

I'm contributing very little to the actual conversation around Liadrin's death, but felt the need to share my thoughts regarding a character, and the overall lore I care about very much, 20 some years later.


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Discussion Why only Horde characters die when Alliance has the narrative lead for majority of the time since BfA? Spoiler

196 Upvotes

The Horde losses:

  • Cairne Dead, Vol'jin Dead, Garrosh Dead, Grommash 1-2 Dead, Saurfang Dead
  • Thrall-Baine-Rokhan are disfunctional and exists for token purpose
  • Thallysra had nearly 0 lore in the new expansion despite she is Queen-Regent (or whatever)
  • Forsaken is led by Calia Menethil an Alliance representative
  • The Goblins feels more neutral, despite Gazlowe is Horde.
  • Eitrigg and Arathi are now besties.
  • Syl is no longer vanas
  • Liadrin cringed out

The Alliance losses:

  • Varian Heroic Death, Tirion dead,
  • Malfurion had the chance to die but swapped with Ysera for 5 mins
  • Tyranda could have died in Ardenweald but was saved
  • McTorque could have died in BfA but got better
  • Magni could have died in TWW but just lost conciousness
  • Khadgar could have died in TWW but was resurrected
  • Alleria survived a blade into her spine and her soul sucked out and beng thrown into the Darkwell and falling to the core of the world (I mean she probably lives)
  • Turalion also survived
  • Anduin is sad.
  • Jaina could have died in either Theramore or in Battle for Zuldazar but no.

At least Tharan Zhu survived MoP. Chad almost died like 5 times in the xpansion, lived through all of the mand also had time to deliver some of the most memorable speeches in the franchise.

I could bring up the shit writing too but it was proven with Forsaken Kingdom that they have the capacity to create good writing teams. They just dont do it for WoW but this does not explain WTF is going on with Horde getting murdered 1 by 1.


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Question Light equivalent of the Void

13 Upvotes

Light and shadow are the primordial cosmic forces behind the universe. Shadow comes from the Void, but is there a similar term for the realm of light, or is it just called the Light interchangeably with the "power" or "force" of light?


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Discussion Does the nation of Stromgarde actually exist right now?

44 Upvotes

It seems like when Danath returned, they rounded up the surviving soldiers, retook Stromgarde keep, then brought in a bunch of Stormwind civilians to fill in for the population of Stromgarde, since there wasn't much of a civilian population left of Stromgarde. Then this potemkin village of a "kingdom" was used as a facade to exert alliance claims over Arathi Highlands.

We know when undead King Galen Trollbane broke away from the Forsaken to form his own little kingdom, it was stated most of the Stromgarde survivors at that point were undead.

Imagine if a nation was destroyed, only a few of its soldiers live, they retake the ruins of a military base, then bring in thousands of people from some other country and declare their nation is somehow "reborn".

Danath may be the legitimate heir of Stromgarde, but his people no longer exist.

And before some one brings up the red dawn, it was stated the vast majority of its members came from Lordaeron, Stormwind and Alterac. Not to mention, we also killed a lot of them, then they were exiled from Arathi Highlands.


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Discussion How do you see history changing for either of the scenarios for the Saurfang family during Wrath of the Lich King?

1 Upvotes
  1. Instead of Dranosh, Varok Saurfang is the one who dies at the hands of Arthas at the Wrathgate fighting alongside Bolvar, and is eventually resurrected and has to be permanently killed during the raid on Icecrown Citadel.

Or…

  1. Dranosh still dies at the Wrathgate and becomes Deathbringer Saurfang, but like how Bolvar managed to survive being burned by dragonfire (albeit permanently changed and having to become the new Lich King after Arthas’ death), Dranosh is ultimately freed from the Lich King’s control and becomes a liberated death knight like the player class and members of the Ebon Blade.

r/warcraftlore • • 2d ago

Mildly interesting tidbit: Denalan, a quest giver in Teldrassil, has visited Swamp of Sorrows "decades ago".

47 Upvotes

Where did you get this? I haven't seen a plant like this since a sojourn I made to the Swamp of Sorrows... decades ago! It's amazing that a specimen made its way to Teldrassil. And it's grown to such a size!

Thank you, <name>. Forgive my shortness of words, but there is a test I would like to perform on this frond...

It's probably a quest writer oversight but I find it interesting on face value, that this guy might have visited a land that no other knew, perhaps through Emerald Dream or crossing the sea and was doing stuff there before the Orcish Horde came.


r/warcraftlore • • 2d ago

"Forest trolls! I still can't believe they were ever a part of the Horde."

133 Upvotes

Direct quote by Thrall in the title, from the first mission of wc3.

So how did that happen? Why would Thrall resent the Forest Trolls? Maybe I am a bit trollbrained but it was Old Horde that let the Trolls down in the Quelthalas campaign, no? Is this kinda like passing the blame or did Doomhammer have a dislike of Zul'jin?


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Question Does being undead have an effect on how the void messes with you?

8 Upvotes

Considering most forsaken priests are shadow priests to the point it's their main religion I'm wondering how the constant connection to the void is handled by an undead mind vs the living. Like would their muted senses be better at dealing with it? As well I am wondering if it messes with their bodies in some ways, since the light has a strong effect on them.


r/warcraftlore • • 2d ago

Discussion What would you say are some of the most strategically stupid decisions made by the defenders of Azeroth (Alliance, Horde or otherwise)?

54 Upvotes

For me, the Alliance-Horde squabbling and skirmishes during Wrath of the Lich King made me want to tear my hair out. Yes, diplomatic relations got badly strained, but when you’re facing arguably one of the largest existential threats to all of Azeroth and you’re operating in a frozen continent without much in the form of resources, you don’t needlessly get your men killed squabbling over resources and attacking each other while simultaneously storming Icecrown Citadel!


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

The Fall of Kith'ix Snail Edition 🐌

0 Upvotes

*emerges from shell* since Rachel Vought made an ABYSMAL ending to the Zul'Aman/Coiled Isle storyline, I Mossy Snail will be planting an improved scene into your heads. Lets do this. *plays Scene*

Kith'ix: *roars in Agony* *the tolls of battle, left him weak, he was smoldering with Holy Flame*

Lor'themar: *breathing heavily*

Zul'Jarra: *looks at Lor'themar* *senses something wrong, and assumed a defensive position around him, Axe out"

Lor'themar: What are y-

Zul'jarra: De beast isn't dead yet elf... *breathes heavily*

Kith'ix: *roars blazing with Holy energy from Liadrin's attack during the battle* *sets it focus on both of them, and begins to shamble over* *each quaking stomp shook the chamber*

*Liadrin is starting to fade*

Liadrin: *spots Kith'ix apprroaching Lor'themar, and Zul'jarra from across the way through her narrowing eyes*

Kith'ix: * reaches them Bringing his claw down over Zul'jarra, and Lor'themar*

Zul'jarra: *raises her axe ready to swing*

Lor'themar: *accepts his death*

Liadrin: *dashes across the Arena in a blazing streak of light* *full on takes the hit, Teeth clenched tightly struggling under the weight of his claw* *looks at both of them over her shoulder, and she began to glow*

Zul'jarra: Hash'ura...!

Lor'themar: Liadrin' Don't!

Liadrin: *Wings expanded*

Kith'ix: *light searing from his wounds* *roars in pain*

Liadrin: Darkness... Will never.... Prevail... *smiles, then unleashes her final wrath, causing Kith'ix to split open from each wound, and Liadrin collapses to the ground, Charred from her Holy Wrath*

*Both Lor'themar, and Zul'jarra look for signs of life*

Lor'themar: *grasps Liadrin's charred hand* Adiel'shalah.... My friend... *tears flow from his face* *and places the arm across her chest* *looks at Zul'jarra Somberly*

Zul'jarra: i- lost Jan... Now you too Hash'ura... *she then punched the ground hard, leaving a dent, her hand bleeding from the impact* *unleashes a pained, and anguished War Cry*

*hits end button with eyestalk*

Now THIS is how a Paladin should go out. A BLAZE of Heroic Glory, Protecting those who they gave their life for. their people, Their allies the ones they truly care for!

I hope i improved on whatever garbage she wrote.


r/warcraftlore • • 3d ago

The absolute madmen, they actually did it! Spoiler

632 Upvotes

They gave us a character death WORSE than Vol'jin's.

Bravo blizzard entertainment


r/warcraftlore • • 2d ago

Discussion Today's cinematic and lore discourse (long post)

35 Upvotes

Before getting into this, I should probably make clear that these are just my thoughts on what happened in Zul'Aman, Liadrin's death, and some of the wider discourse surrounding Warcraft's storytelling. I'm certainly not suggesting that Blizzard always gets things right. Far from it, and I have plenty of criticisms of the writing myself. What interests me is how we engage with these stories, what we actually want from them, and whether some of the expectations being expressed are entirely reasonable. Equally, perhaps I'm allowing myself to get too frustrated with the complaints of a vocal minority who were never likely to be happy in the first place. Either way, I think there's an interesting discussion to be had here.

I've been reading quite a lot of the discussion surrounding Liadrin's death, and I'm finding some of the reactions genuinely quite strange. There are perfectly reasonable criticisms to be made of the cinematic, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that Blizzard has suddenly become incapable of making poor narrative decisions. However, I think there's an important distinction between a story being poorly presented and that story being fundamentally poorly written. In Liadrin's case, I would argue that we're looking at a surprisingly satisfying conclusion to a character whose development stretches back to The Burning Crusade, undermined by a cinematic that doesn't adequately communicate what has actually happened.

I also think the reaction raises a wider question about what people actually want from Warcraft's storytelling, because some of the expectations being expressed seem almost impossible to reconcile. We want the world to feel dangerous, but become frustrated when characters we care about die. We want victories to come at a cost, but apparently that cost needs to be paid in a sufficiently spectacular fashion. We want more grounded, localised stories instead of endless cosmic escalation, but then complain when a major character dies fighting something that isn't the latest universe-threatening antagonist. Obviously, we're dealing with an enormous community rather than one person making all these arguments, but it sometimes reminds me of that Simpsons focus group where everybody wants something different and the resulting demands become increasingly contradictory.

I'm quite prepared to criticise Warcraft's writing, and frequently do. I think Blizzard has a persistent problem with its overarching narratives, especially when everything needs to accommodate expansion schedules, enormous ensembles and relatively accessible storytelling. Character motivations can become simplified, emotional moments are sometimes incredibly hammy, and major developments are rushed through because the next patch needs to happen. However, I've also maintained for years that some of Warcraft's best writing happens on a much smaller scale. The Dragonmaw quests in the Waking Shores, the Blue Dragonflight's diaspora storyline, and that wonderful Earthen questline dealing with dementia are all examples of stories that manage to explore genuinely interesting ideas without requiring another cosmic revelation. There's a great deal of thoughtful writing in this game, even when the larger narrative struggles to accommodate it. And I think Liadrin is another example of that, although her story has been developing for considerably longer.

It's worth remembering who Liadrin actually was before becoming the Blood Knight Matriarch. Her parents were killed by Amani trolls, leaving her to be raised by High Priest Vandellor, whose example inspired her own devotion to the Holy Light. She became a priestess, someone whose vocation was fundamentally concerned with preserving life, only to experience the destruction of Quel'Thalas and everything that came with it. Her faith collapsed as the Scourge overwhelmed her people, and she was eventually forced to kill the reanimated Vandellor herself. She abandoned the priesthood, took up arms, and became increasingly consumed by the need to defend her people and avenge what had happened to them.

The foundation of the Blood Knights is an especially important part of this. Liadrin didn't simply become a paladin because she discovered a new way of using the Light. She helped establish an order that forcibly extracted power from the captive naaru M'uru, something profoundly at odds with the religious principles she had once embraced. There is something deeply tragic about a former priestess, convinced that the Light had abandoned her, deciding that she would never again depend upon its willingness to answer her prayers. If it wouldn't grant her the strength she needed, she would take that strength instead. The early Blood Knights were powerful, certainly, but their relationship with the Light was one of domination rather than service. Even the original quests reflected their arrogance, including the deliberate desecration of a holy chapel to demonstrate their superiority over other paladins.

The events surrounding the Sunwell's restoration represented a fundamental change in that relationship. Liadrin came to understand M'uru's sacrifice and the possibility of redemption, and the restoration of the Sunwell through the naaru's heart offered something considerably more meaningful than another source of magical power. She and the Blood Knights could finally embrace the Light through faith rather than coercion. This didn't erase their actions, and Liadrin herself was conscious of the terrible things they had done, but it gave her a different understanding of what her power ought to represent. Her subsequent appearances have repeatedly explored that responsibility, and I've always thought her continuing struggle with faith, guilt and duty made her one of the more interesting paladins in Warcraft.

Which brings us to Midnight, and something I think is being overlooked in the current discussion. Blizzard released an entire animated short, All That is Sacred, revisiting Liadrin's experiences during the fall of Silvermoon and her inability to save those around her. The expansion's introductory cinematic, Intercession, then gives us a striking continuation of those ideas. Faced with another seemingly hopeless attack upon Quel'Thalas, she initially struggles with her prayers, recalling the crisis of faith that defined her earlier life. But when she finally appeals to the Light, she doesn't demand the power to destroy her enemies, or even ask to be saved herself. She acknowledges her own unworthiness and asks that her people be given the strength to endure.

I think that's an incredibly important distinction in understanding her character. The woman who once believed the Light had failed her, and subsequently sought to bend it to her will, is now praying for others because she believes their lives matter more than her own. Even the question of whether the Light should be used for vengeance or protection has been running through Midnight, especially through Arator and his struggles with the potentially destructive certainty of righteous fury. Liadrin has lived through that conflict herself. Her answer, ultimately, is that the purpose of her power is to preserve life.

Her relationship with the Amani makes that conclusion even more meaningful. We're talking about someone whose childhood was shaped by the murder of her parents at the hands of trolls, and whose people have spent millennia fighting over Quel'Thalas. I do think the reconciliation between the blood elves and Amani has sometimes been handled too quickly, and there's a worthwhile discussion about the historical grievances that cannot simply disappear because their leaders have found common ground. However, Liadrin choosing to move beyond her own resentment is entirely consistent with the direction her character has taken. She has spent much of her life learning that vengeance cannot restore what was lost, and that there is a difference between defending your people and perpetuating the hatred that helped create their suffering.

This is also why I think her role in the Kith'ix encounter is so appropriate. People have been describing her as weak, or claiming that she simply collapses for no reason, but the fight itself tells a completely different story. From the outset, Liadrin is protecting us from an enemy whose attacks would otherwise overwhelm the raid. She establishes barriers against the darkness, shields us from devastating attacks, and repeatedly channels enough Light to force Kith'ix back. Every time she uses Divine Radiance, she's being placed under increasing strain. The encounter even has a stacking mechanic called Exhausted, which progressively weakens the protection she can provide. Her deteriorating condition is quite literally built into the fight.

Then, when Kith'ix incapacitates everyone at 25%, she gives absolutely everything she has left. Last Light transforms her into a conduit of pure Light, restores the raid and empowers us to finish the fight before the darkness overwhelms her. We don't somehow defeat Kith'ix while Liadrin stands around being useless. We defeat him because she makes it possible for us to do so. The entire encounter is constructed around her increasingly desperate efforts to keep everybody alive, with the final phase representing the culmination of that sacrifice. I struggle to understand how somebody can experience that and conclude that she accomplished nothing.

There's also something significant about her wielding a shield, rather than simply cutting loose with an enormous display of offensive power. I don't know whether the visual choice was consciously intended to reflect the entirety of her character development, but it certainly works in that context. The former priestess, who became a warrior because she could no longer bear her helplessness, finally gives her life protecting others. She doesn't need to overcome Kith'ix through some spectacular demonstration of personal superiority. She enables everybody else to survive and accomplish what she cannot. I genuinely think that's about as fitting an expression of what a paladin ought to be as Warcraft could reasonably provide.

Nor is Kith'ix some random monster created to fill out a minor patch. This is a C'Thraxxi general of the Black Empire who fought Tyr himself, survived the explosion that killed Zakajz, and later rallied the aqir into a war that threatened the ancient troll civilisations. His original defeat required the Amani to make a catastrophic sacrifice of their own, summoning Ula'tek and suffering enormous losses in the process. Zul'Aman was established on the site of that victory. His history even intersects with Xal'atath, who was involved in his ancient awakening. I find it frustrating to see people lamenting Blizzard's supposed disregard for established lore while simultaneously treating someone with that background as an insignificant enemy. You don't have to like the encounter, but there's considerably more history here than the criticism sometimes acknowledges.

And, crucially, this is a threat that matters because of its significance to the people and places involved. Ula'tek wasn't simply another manifestation of the overarching Void apocalypse, and Kith'ix doesn't have to be the ultimate cosmic antagonist for his return to be terrifying. The raid concludes a story concerning the Amani, Quel'Thalas, their shared history and the possibility of a different future. We're dealing with an ancient horror whose existence shaped an entire civilisation, and whose return threatens to destroy the fragile peace that has only just begun to emerge. Meanwhile, the historical connections to Xal'atath allow that local story to exist within the broader conflict without making every development exclusively about her. Isn't this precisely the sort of approach people have been asking for?

For what it's worth, I don't even enjoy the raids this season all that much, and I've found this season's Mythic dungeon pool thoroughly disappointing. I'm not defending the content simply because it's the latest thing Blizzard has released. But as a narrative proposition, a smaller raid centred on a long-established regional threat, with meaningful connections to the surrounding cultures and an actual cost to its defeat, strikes me as a perfectly reasonable direction for Warcraft to take.

Now, none of this means the cinematic is beyond criticism. Quite the opposite, actually. I think the presentation is the weakest part of the entire sequence, and it's frustrating because the encounter has already done so much work establishing the consequences of Liadrin's actions. The cinematic should be communicating the culmination of that struggle, yet instead we're presented with a relatively awkward scene in which the characters celebrate, Liadrin appears to weaken, and then rather abruptly collapses. There's very little visual indication of the extraordinary power she's just expended, and the staging doesn't adequately convey the gravity of what's happened. I can understand somebody watching it in isolation wondering why she has apparently just died.

However, I don't think the answer is necessarily to have her explode in a colossal pillar of Light or engage in some enormous anime-style beam struggle. We've just watched her expend everything she has defending others. Her death is quiet because the struggle itself is over, and she has survived long enough to see that her sacrifice accomplished something. There's a potentially very moving moment in that, especially given her history of failing to save the people she loved. Blizzard simply hasn't presented it as effectively as it could have. That's a criticism of the execution, and a perfectly fair one, but I don't think it invalidates the underlying story.

The comparison with Tirion Fordring is interesting here, because I remember similar complaints surrounding his death during Legion. Tirion was one of the most powerful paladins in Warcraft, the wielder of the Ashbringer and the man responsible for shattering Frostmourne. Yet his death followed an encounter with Krosus on the Broken Shore, before he finally succumbed to his injuries during the paladin artifact storyline. People sometimes describe this as though he were casually dispatched by some anonymous enemy, overlooking the fact that Krosus was an enormous, exceptionally powerful demon whose attack broke through Tirion's protection. His death could certainly have been presented better, but the idea that he shouldn't have died because of his established power seems strange.

More importantly, Tirion had already experienced his defining triumph. At Icecrown, when the Lich King had seemingly won, Tirion appealed to the Light for one final blessing and shattered Frostmourne. That was the culmination of his struggle against Arthas, and one of the most consequential moments in Warcraft's history. He subsequently continued to serve, but his eventual death didn't somehow diminish what he had accomplished. A character's final moment doesn't have to surpass every previous achievement for their story to have been worthwhile. Indeed, continually escalating the spectacle required to kill established characters would eventually make meaningful consequences almost impossible.

And I think the recent Forsaken Kingdom expansion for Warcraft III provides an interesting contrast. I really enjoyed a great deal of its presentation, including Garek Bandarion's enormous sacrifice through the Holy Light. That moment involves precisely the sort of spectacular explosion that people seem to be demanding for Liadrin, but I don't object to it because it suits the circumstances and the character's story. His final act is structured around destroying an immediate threat through a desperate, destructive sacrifice. Liadrin's is structured around sustaining and protecting others until they can defeat the threat themselves. Both approaches can be appropriate, and I don't understand why the quality of a character's death should be measured by how much of the surrounding landscape they manage to obliterate.

This gets back to the wider problem I've been struggling with throughout the reaction. There seems to be an expectation in parts of the community that important characters must either survive indefinitely or receive an increasingly spectacular send-off. We regularly hear complaints that Warcraft has become too safe, too sanitised, too Disney, or that our victories never seem to come with any meaningful losses. Yet here we've defeated an enemy whose return threatened two peoples, and a beloved character has died ensuring that victory. Suddenly, the complaint is that she should have been powerful enough to survive, or that her death wasn't impressive enough, or that she deserved to be saved for some hypothetical future storyline instead.

I understand that these aren't necessarily contradictory positions when expressed by different people, and I don't think wanting a darker story obliges anyone to applaud every death Blizzard writes. The problem is when criticism stops engaging with what the story actually establishes. If every powerful character is protected by their reputation, every important character needs a grander final battle, and every death is dismissed as wasteful because the character theoretically had more stories to tell, how are we ever supposed to arrive at a world where victories have consequences? There's a point at which asking for meaningful stakes while refusing to accept meaningful losses becomes a demand for plot armour.

There are also legitimate concerns about Blizzard's treatment of the Horde, and I wouldn't dismiss the frustration of players who've watched so many established characters disappear over the years. Salandria, the future of the Blood Knights, and the implications of peace between the Amani and blood elves all deserve attention beyond Liadrin's sacrifice. I hope Blizzard actually explores those consequences rather than simply treating her death as a convenient way of transferring narrative importance to somebody else. But the existence of potential future stories isn't, by itself, evidence that her existing story has been cut short. Characters don't need to exhaust every conceivable possibility before they're allowed to die.

Personally, I hope Liadrin stays dead. I've already seen suggestions that she might return as a Forsaken paladin, and while I understand the appeal of exploring that concept, I think it would risk undermining a conclusion that makes an enormous amount of sense for her. She began as someone whose faith was shattered because she couldn't save those she loved, became someone who sought power through coercion and vengeance, and ultimately rediscovered the purpose of that faith through compassion, service and sacrifice. She dies saving people whose ancestors were once her enemies, while giving others the strength to survive. There's something genuinely beautiful about that, and I think it's considerably more interesting than another miraculous escape.

Warcraft is an enormous setting, with decades of often contradictory storytelling, and I don't expect everyone to agree about what constitutes a satisfying conclusion. I certainly don't think we should lower our standards simply because Blizzard occasionally manages to get the underlying ideas right. But I do think we should distinguish between what a story is actually saying and whether its cinematic presentation successfully communicates it. Liadrin's final moments deserved better direction, and I wish the visual storytelling had matched the quality of what preceded them. Nevertheless, having followed her journey since The Burning Crusade, I find it difficult to imagine a conclusion more consistent with the person she had spent all those years becoming.

She finally had the power to save people, and she chose to spend every last bit of it doing precisely that. I think that's a pretty fitting end to her story.


r/warcraftlore • • 2d ago

Question So how was Tyrande planning to kill Sylvanas by strangling her?

31 Upvotes

I mean like Sylvanas is undead? I don't think she's really required to breathe (or eat, or drink, or sleep either) and the way strangulation kills people is restricting someone's airflow until they pass away due to fatal brain damage.

Maybe she would have fractured her undead larynx or something, but unless she was about to rip her head off or something I don't think even Elune could strangle something that doesn't need to breathe


r/warcraftlore • • 2d ago

Discussion Forget the Jailer. How would you rewrite Med'an in Forever?

33 Upvotes

Congratulations, as a developer on WoW: Forever you have been given the important task of bringing Garona’s story to the classic era. They, the corporate overlords, have however made one requirement. You have to write Med’an into the story.

How do you do it?


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Discussion I think Forever could add Finnall Goldensword to its story

0 Upvotes

She got so much potential and could add more development to other characters like Jaina and her family! Even Daelin would receive benefit if handled well.