r/Adulting • u/Electronic_Hippo2968 • 18h ago
If being a good person doesn’t guarantee a good life, and being a bad person doesn’t guarantee consequences, what is the actual point of morality?
We grow up being told to be honest, kind, loyal, and respectful. But in real life, dishonest people sometimes become successful, selfish people find loving partners, and genuinely good people spend their lives struggling.
If morality doesn’t guarantee happiness, success, or justice, why should someone choose to be good when being selfish could benefit them more?
Is morality something we genuinely believe in, or is it something society teaches us because it makes people easier to control?
I’m genuinely interested in hearing different perspectives, especially from people whose real-life experiences have changed how they see morality.
68
u/Rvaldrich 16h ago
If being rewarded is the only reason you're good, and avoiding punishment is the only reason you opt not to do bad, you aren't moral. You're masquerading.
30
u/Round_Cobbler6906 15h ago
Let me fix that for you… if being rewarded is the only reason you’re good and avoiding punishment is the only reason you opt not to do bad, you aren’t moral… You’re religious!
6
u/Electronic_Hippo2968 14h ago
I don’t think that’s fair. Religion doesn’t automatically make someone moral or immoral, just like being non-religious doesn’t automatically make someone a good person. Some people do good because of their faith, others because of their values and empathy. The real question is whether you’d still choose to do the right thing if there were no reward for it and no punishment for doing otherwise. That applies to everyone, religious or not.
3
u/erutuferutuf 10h ago
But religion tells you to be good in order to get good return (example going to heaven if you are a Christian) and being bad will lead you bad return (going to hell?) the being good is a result of you believing and hope for return. Not your true moral.
Where as being good and dont be bad without the gain or punishment behind it. That's your true moral.
4
u/POYDRAWSYOU 7h ago
“But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,”
- Matthew 6:3.
- The Anatomy of True Humility (Killing the Ego)
If your left hand doesn't know what your right hand is doing, it means your giving has become instinctive, immediate, and free from self-congratulation. • No internal scorecard: Jesus is warning against the subtle pride of keeping a mental tally of how "good" we are. If you dwell on your own generosity, you are simply feeding your own ego.
• The Pharisee's Trap: This directly mirrors the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector we looked at. The Pharisee's "left hand" knew exactly what his right hand was doing—he had a perfect checklist of his prayers and fasting, which ultimately turned into spiritual pride. Jesus wants our goodness to be so natural that we don't even pause to admire ourselves for it.
I challenge you to read some parables, its good for you and comes from jesus not religion
→ More replies (8)2
u/Ghostintamagachi 4h ago
The message has been misconstrued that way by the Church and pastors firey surmans to keep people in line and by the men who wrote and compiled the Bible. The true 'word' of God cannot be translated into words except by man who is fallable that is the crux of religion or political systems(communism should be the basis of a eutopia but Stalin.)Jesus Christ is about living in Good faith not the reward of death. He never said anything about the rapture or devils and hells. or that God is always nice and looking out for you. see old testament. The symbols (cross/Bible) aren't Gospel Beliefv that living in balance with the message is salvation.Here. when the Buddha achieved enlightenment he medatated for 7¿ days and cried out in despair this cannot be taught! The message is allways misused corrupted translated outdated & came from the God seen through the eyes of another person and despite all that is more valuable than all the gold in the ground.
1
u/TheGhostOfSgtOsiris 5h ago
If you are only respectful when it's socially obligated, you aren't a good person you are polite.
2
u/Throwawaylul7z 7h ago
Im going to challenge this as I personally dont believe that there is such a thing as a truly selfless act. You would need to define reward and punishment for me better.
So far as I'm concerned, I don't believe anyone acts morally/immorally according to their own value system without some fundamental basis of reward and punishment.
Even getting a hit of dopamine or an ego boost from doing what one perceives to be the "right thing" is a reward. Conversely, feeling guilty about doing what someone perceives to be the "wrong thing" is a punishment. I cannot fathom why anyone would do anything one way or the other without at least that much. It's not masquerading it's just how it works.
6
u/cannycandelabra 6h ago
I think you have a valid point but it isn’t true for everyone. I cared for my father when he was dying. I had a job so I took care of him at night. When he called for me at 4:00 am there was no hit of dopamine, no promise of heaven. I hated every second I got him his milk.
Sometimes you do the right thing because it’s the right thing, or at least I do and I’m sure I’m not alone.
2
u/Throwawaylul7z 6h ago
But then you would have felt guilty had you not done that no? Left your father to die and not cared for him I mean.
→ More replies (3)1
u/donthackme1990 3h ago
Similar to what author Robert Heinlein wrote in one of his books, can’t remember which. “Altruism doesn’t exist” or something similar to that.
1
u/Will564339 5h ago
This is an interesting thought experiment that I like to think about.
In general, I believe that when someone has the "moral" motivation as you put it instead of the "masquerading" one, then throughout their life they are probably going to do more good acts, because they'll have more opportunities to do so...since they won't be dependent upon some reward.
But let's say this isn't the case. Let's say that if someone is motivated by reward, then in their life they commit more good acts than they would if they weren't motivated by it (or we could compare them to another person, but since there are other variables, it might invalidate the comparison).
In that case, why would being moral be superior to masquerading? Why does the motivation matter more than the results?
This may be more of a utilitarian point of view/philosophy, but it's one I like to think about.
1
26
u/WEM-2022 17h ago
The point of morality is kindness toward others so you are contributing toward the greater good.
The point of morality is to challenging yourself to practice behaving honorably under difficult circumstances.
The point of morality is to keep your side of the street - and your soul - clean.
And if you are strictly being transactional about it, then the point of morality is to be able to feel smug when comparing your own high road to someone else's low down dung infested cow path.
6
u/Ariandrin 15h ago
This!
The point of morality is being able to walk away from a situation knowing you did your best to do the right thing, to leave the world slightly better than you found it, to make the lives of others slightly easier, and more than anything, I think the point of morality is to show others the way so that they, too, go on to make morally good choices and make the world a little bit better.
Like the emotional equivalent of picking up trash on the street.
10
u/Dry-Fly-9729 8h ago
Many people who have had near death experiences report an overwhelming understanding that everyone is connected, that when we hurt others, we also hurt ourselves. That individuality is a concept that disappears after this life and we are made to feel how we made others to feel. They also report that there is no judgment in this understanding; our spirits learn and continue on. I love this notion and while I also struggle with feeling that bad people seem to get away with no consequences, I do believe they will feel how they made others feel when their time comes. Not as a punishment but to grow. I think we are all here to learn and grow and there is something beautiful waiting for us after. I’m not religious but I personally believe these concepts to be real.
2
u/POYDRAWSYOU 7h ago
I watch ndes too, multiple reports asked the same question, how did you love? What did u do for others?
3
u/Dry-Fly-9729 5h ago
Isn’t it fascinating? I like to read the NDE’s on the NDERF website. They cheer me up for some reason. It’s lovely to think such a place of love lies beyond.
1
10
u/EarthAndSawdust 8h ago
Dude. morality is choosing to act beneficial to others, knowing there is no reward. that's like the definition.
9
u/Possible-Reason-2896 10h ago
My rule is simple; try not to live your life in a way that encourages people to want to punch you in the face. Because eventually someone might do it.
1
14
u/YvesAdamz 15h ago
Transactional people cannot understand this concept. Morality is not a transaction. My ex (a consummate liar) hates my level of morals and my honesty. He called my honesty "brutal." I'm honest because it's the kindest thing to be, not brutal. I'm honest because that, to me, means trustworthiness. I don't trust dishonest people and if I were a liar I would expect to not be trusted. I am honest because that makes me feel good about myself. If I'm not good with me, why would anyone else be? I'm honest because lying feels disgusting and I'm not here for it. Morals might be expected from the majority, but in my experience; the majority is not exorcizing them. So morals have become something personal and private, not something we can expect from others. Strange New World, indeed.
1
u/TechTier 11h ago
Exactly it's not about what you get from it. Do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.
6
5
u/Ghostintamagachi 9h ago
to make society function and the safety of the family unit. Core to getting along. what would it look like if everyone was sociopaths? Sure they are successful usually but with no one to feed off.. I assume your no old enough to remember pre 9/11 but the world was not like this. it wasn't perfect but it wasn't cutthroat. The laws and regulations existed for a reason.Balance rights with the next citizen. ex. you could only donate 10,000$ to a campaign because corruption.
2
u/AnyBirthday418 8h ago
Exactly. I think this is the most accurate stuff here. It helps society work better. If everyone follows a queue, systems will be orderly and most people will be happy, sometimes making the exceptions who cut lines to feel smart.
But imagine if everyone cut lines because they prioritized themselves over the greater good.
Same goes with stealing from others, hurting others, etc.
5
3
u/Iko87iko 7h ago
Because doing the right thing needs no reward. Anyone can be a scammed piece of shit. I couldn't care what anyone thinks of me, but I know the values & integrity that I was taught and those things matter to me. Do I always live up to the standards I've set for my self? No, I don't, but more times than I haven't
You know what the reward is? As stated it feels good, more importantly, people recognize you as a man/women of integrity, they tell others, and it becomes your reputation and then your word turns into your currency, if you say something, people will consider it fact, or count it done, and that is a great feeling, not just for you, but for your parents & kids, and then it becomes your family reputation. Is that enough? It is for me
4
u/ggsimsarah333 7h ago
Do to others what you’d wish them to do to you. Everything we do contributes to the world we have. Do you want to be an active good or bad in the world?
3
u/Solmanti 17h ago
Personally I think it benefits you more to be kind. You don't feel guilty consciously or subconsciously and nothing is worse than being tormented by your own mind and not being able to sleep at night. And then there is the simple logic about if others do it to you and you wouldn't like it why should you do it? Don't you contribute to the unkindness then? Do you like seing yourself being just likw those people? Do you really benefit? Maybe on short term but I think long term it doesn't really benefit you.
3
u/rae_of_fkn_sunshine 15h ago
I will always treat people how I want to be treated. It doesn't matter if someone gets by being sketchy or shady, that's just not how I want to live.
1
u/Electronic_Hippo2968 14h ago
I respect that. I think real morality shows up when you have the chance to do something wrong and get away with it, but still choose not to. Not because you’re afraid of consequences, but because that’s simply not the kind of person you want to be. Do you think everyone has that sense of right and wrong, or do some people genuinely lack it?
1
u/ChocolateValuable221 12h ago
That word is integrity and it's hard to judge its spectrum since morality itself is also a spectrum... but you are correct. Morality is taught. Or well, ethics anyway.
3
u/Wonderful-Opening309 14h ago
Morality is not for them , it's for you.
1
u/WEM-2022 9h ago
This is resonating with me. It's like funerals and forgiveness. A funeral isn't for the dead, it's for the living, so they can grieve together and start the closure process. Forgiveness isn't for the perp, it's for the victim, so they can stop wasting their focus on what they cannot change and put the perp behind them.
1
3
u/LethalOkra 8h ago
Welcome to life. Morality is subjective. If you believe otherwise, I suggest you take a trip to r/PhilosophyMemes and argue about it there a bit. It's going to be a fun ride, I promise.
3
u/BMtheGM1 8h ago
Both. You can choose to be moral even when others are not. But morality is necessary for civilization to prosper. You can have a group of pirates that have morals in that they don’t plunder amongst themselves, but good luck building a coherent society around that.
Morals don’t guarantee anything, but they can tilt probability in your favor. It’s hard to build things up and easy to tear them down.
3
4
u/Holidaykitten 10h ago
Because It feels bad to do bad things, you have to live with yourself knowing someone is having trauma because of you. That’s not good.
Morality doesn’t affect only you, but us all. Some day I hope empathy rise and take It’s rightfull place to lead. For the world, our pack 😅😅 Cynical leading leads to suffering.
1
u/Electronic_Hippo2968 9h ago
I agree with you. I think morality becomes meaningful when we realise that our actions don’t end with us; they become someone else’s experiences, sometimes wounds they carry for years. But do you think empathy alone is enough to make people moral, or do people need to understand suffering themselves before they truly care about it?
1
2
u/piper_saw04 17h ago
but just imagine everyone thought like this ? humanity has built itself up from mutual understanding, empathy and co-operation. Animals dont have a concept of morality but they still have love for their own kind, we see that in them mourning their offsprings/ partners if they die. we would still be living in the stone age, if humans didnt agree to work with each other, if they didnt go hunting in a pack, if they didnt form groups and help lift heavy boulders to build large structures and form villages, communities, form governments etc. The truth is the only way to go forward is to learn how to work with others which requires us to trust others and others trusting us; which needs us to monitor our own behavior and understand for the greater good one has to be good themself. I know this answer might seem like its going a bit off track.
But i genuinely think that for everyone to survive on this planet, everyone has to abide by some rules and have dignity. Also dishonest people might have everything on the surface level, but do we know if they are happy? also there isnt a single person who has everything great in their life, maybe dishonest/ fake people are just great at showing they have it all because obv they are dishonest. We should choose good because good often does come back to us and even if you dont believe in karma , god etc your dishonesty/ mistakes will always be there in your subconscious eating u up, which will most probably lead to self destruction or paranoia unless ofc youre a psychopath devoid of any empathy at all
1
u/MagicPoocean 16h ago
Why would you think animals don’t have a sense of morality? Countless examples of it. Have you seen the video on Reddit of the elephant rescuing an antelope from drowning? Just for one example.
1
u/piper_saw04 16h ago
what i ment was, they dont follow it consciously/ intentionally like humans do, they havent made up a construct like us
2
u/AnthonyRespice 17h ago
It's about quality of life. Kind people improve the quality around them, make life easier and peaceful. If you are around toxic people you need to leave and find people with your sensibilities.
Have you ever met a successful couple who are miserable and selfish to each other. Who would want this?
Justice is a myth. There is no justice. It is hope for the weak. Produce your own outcomes or learn to accept things as they are.
2
u/Timely-Photograph-62 14h ago
There’s a price to pay for everything. Be good, do good, and seek peace.
2
u/TransMuffMaam 12h ago
Congratulations on finally understanding on why so many people get ahead in life.
2
u/andersdale 10h ago
Morality show you as a reliable character that others around you can depend on, that secures long lasting satisfying relations with other people.
2
2
u/abcamurComposer 8h ago
You only see the bad people who get to the top. By and large the vast majority of assholes are some combination of deeply unhappy, poor, friendless, and unsuccessful
2
u/Necessary-Duty-7952 8h ago
I don't know how else to explain to you that you should care about other people.
2
u/Niibelung 6h ago
If being good always resulted in rewards nobody would actually be good, they would just do it for the rewards
2
u/DoubleResponsible276 2h ago
Do you want to hurt others just because you can? If so, don't cry when its returned to you.
2
u/Notgaybutikisshomies 1h ago
What’s the point of morality? My mom is proud of me. I am a good person because my mother was the best of people. My character reflects her character.
2
u/Any-Loan9948 59m ago
It's sort of boils down they're pretty simple question: "If everyone did this, what would life be like?"
Any decision that makes that answer crappier is a decision you shouldn't make because if everyone else makes it too, your life will be awful.
5
3
u/GellieBean123 14h ago
The point of morality is to help us live the best life possible in a shared world.
Take this example: I place an order for an item on a website. I follow the tracking and the moment I see it has been sent for delivery, I place a request for a chargeback on my card, claiming someone used it without my authorisation, and the request is approved (immoral). I think I am getting a free item.
On the day of the item being delivered, I get a message that my item has been delivered but when I got to my front porch to fetch it, I discover an empty porch. Turns out, the postman faked the delivery and claimed the item for himself (immoral). He now thinks he is getting a free item.
When the postman gets home, he opens up the box to find it simply weighed down with rocks and no item. Turns out, the company didn't send the item and just weight the box to make it seem full (immoral). The company thought they were getting free money.
Each one of us in that scenario lost out. The company didn't get the money, I didn't get the parcel and the postman got a dud package. How do we resolve this if we are all bent on screwing each other over? Who is going to help us if they think we are going to screw them over?
Morality is like wearing a seatbelt. You can still die in a car accident if you wear a seatbelt, but it's a heck of a lot less likely than if you don't.
→ More replies (2)1
u/Electronic_Hippo2968 14h ago
That’s actually a good example. I agree that morality makes it easier for people to coexist and trust each other. Without it, everyone would constantly be trying to take advantage of everyone else.
But I think there’s another question here. If morality is necessary for a society to function, does that automatically make something morally right, or does it just make it useful for us as a society? And if morality comes from our need to live together, does it exist independently of humans, or is it something we created to survive together?→ More replies (1)
3
u/Temporary-Towel-7656 14h ago
it's a little scary you have to ask this. I have no desire to ever harm others or do bad; the answer is human empathy.
3
u/Able_Enthusiasm2729 5h ago
Ecclesiastes 8: 9-17 (The Wicked and the Righteous):
'I have thought deeply about all that goes on here under the sun, where people have the power to hurt each other. I have seen wicked people buried with honor. Yet they were the very ones who frequented the Temple and are now praised in the same city where they committed their crimes! This, too, is meaningless. When a crime is not punished quickly, people feel it is safe to do wrong. But even though a person sins a hundred times and still lives a long time, I know that those who fear God will be better off. The wicked will not prosper, for they do not fear God. Their days will never grow long like the evening shadows. And this is not all that is meaningless in our world. In this life, good people are often treated as though they were wicked, and wicked people are often treated as though they were good. This is so meaningless! So I recommend having fun, because there is nothing better for people in this world than to eat, drink, and enjoy life. That way they will experience some happiness along with all the hard work God gives them under the sun. In my search for wisdom and in my observation of people’s burdens here on earth, I discovered that there is ceaseless activity, day and night. I realized that no one can discover everything God is doing under the sun. Not even the wisest people discover everything, no matter what they claim.'
Ecclesiastes 8:9-17 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/ECC.8.9-17.NLT
2 Corinthians 4:16-18:
'That is why we never give up. Though our bodies are dying, our spirits are being renewed every day. For our present troubles are small and won’t last very long. Yet they produce for us a glory that vastly outweighs them and will last forever! So we don’t look at the troubles we can see now; rather, we fix our gaze on things that cannot be seen. For the things we see now will soon be gone, but the things we cannot see will last forever.'
2 Corinthians 4:16-18 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/2CO.4.16-18.NLT
1 Peter 2:20-25:
'Of course, you get no credit for being patient if you are beaten for doing wrong. But if you suffer for doing good and endure it patiently, God is pleased with you. For God called you to do good, even if it means suffering, just as Christ suffered for you. He is your example, and you must follow in his steps. He never sinned, nor ever deceived anyone. He did not retaliate when he was insulted, nor threaten revenge when he suffered. He left his case in the hands of God, who always judges fairly. He personally carried our sins in his body on the cross so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. By his wounds you are healed. Once you were like sheep who wandered away. But now you have turned to your Shepherd, the Guardian of your souls.'
1 Peter 2:20-25 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/1PE.2.20-25.NLT
John 16:33:
'I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world.”'
John 16:33 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/JHN.16.33.NLT
Romans 8:18-30 (The Future Glory):
'Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us. We were given this hope when we were saved. (If we already have something, we don’t need to hope for it. But if we look forward to something we don’t yet have, we must wait patiently and confidently.) And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don’t know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God’s own will. And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory. '
Romans 8:18-30 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/ROM.8.18-30.NLT
Romans 8:31-39 (Nothing Can Separate Us from God’s Love):
'What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us. Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”) No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us. And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.'
Romans 8:31-39 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/ROM.8.31-39.NLT
Matthew 5:10-12:
' God blesses those who are persecuted for doing right, for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs. “God blesses you when people mock you and persecute you and lie about you and say all sorts of evil things against you because you are my followers. Be happy about it! Be very glad! For a great reward awaits you in heaven. And remember, the ancient prophets were persecuted in the same way. '
Matthew 5:10-12 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/MAT.5.10-12.NLT
Revelation 21 (The New Jerusalem): … .
Revelation 21 NLT
2
2
u/Able_Enthusiasm2729 5h ago
Revelation 21 (The New Jerusalem):
'Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. '
Revelation 21:1-2 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/REV.21.1-2.NLT'I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them. He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.” '
Revelation 21:3-4 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/REV.21.3-4.NLT'And the one sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” And then he said to me, “Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true.” And he also said, “It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega—the Beginning and the End. To all who are thirsty I will give freely from the springs of the water of life. All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. '
Revelation 21:5-7 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/REV.21.5-7.NLT'“But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” '
Revelation 21:8 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/REV.21.8.NLT'Then one of the seven angels who held the seven bowls containing the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come with me! I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” '
Revelation 21:9 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/REV.21.9.NLT'So he took me in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and he showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. It shone with the glory of God and sparkled like a precious stone—like jasper as clear as crystal. The city wall was broad and high, with twelve gates guarded by twelve angels. And the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were written on the gates. There were three gates on each side—east, north, south, and west. The wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were written the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. '
Revelation 21:10-14 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/REV.21.10-14.NLT'The angel who talked to me held in his hand a gold measuring stick to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. When he measured it, he found it was a square, as wide as it was long. In fact, its length and width and height were each 1,400 miles. Then he measured the walls and found them to be 216 feet thick (according to the human standard used by the angel). '
Revelation 21:15-17 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/REV.21.15-17.NLT'The wall was made of jasper, and the city was pure gold, as clear as glass. The wall of the city was built on foundation stones inlaid with twelve precious stones: the first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. '
Revelation 21:18-20 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/REV.21.18-20.NLT'The twelve gates were made of pearls—each gate from a single pearl! And the main street was pure gold, as clear as glass. '
Revelation 21:21 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/REV.21.21.NLT'I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need of sun or moon, for the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its light. The nations will walk in its light, and the kings of the world will enter the city in all their glory. Its gates will never be closed at the end of day because there is no night there. And all the nations will bring their glory and honor into the city. Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.'
Revelation 21:22-27 NLT
https://www.bible.com/bible/116/REV.21.22-27.NLT[ Revelation 21 - https://www.bible.com/bible/116/REV.21.NLT ]
→ More replies (1)1
2
u/Working_Cucumber_437 17h ago
Well for the religious, doing the right thing is the right thing to do. Morality is laid out in scripture.
For the non-religious perspective the way I think about it is: who am I? Who do I want to be? I’m not responsible for anyone but me. Feeling at peace with who you are at the end of the day is priceless. Having values gives you identity and purpose and we respect ourselves when we act according to a set of values. This leads to other good things like trusting yourself, developing and internal compass, and building self-esteem.
3
u/Electronic_Hippo2968 14h ago
I like the way you explained this, especially the part about being at peace with who you are. But I’m curious about one thing. If a religious person does the right thing because scripture tells them to, and a non-religious person does it because it aligns with their personal values, does the reason behind the action matter more than the action itself? Like, is someone truly moral because they do good, or does their intention matter just as much?
2
u/lucidarocks 16h ago
I disagree about religious morality. They don’t do the right thing because it’s the right thing to do. They do it because they believe they will be rewarded if they do or punished if they don’t. They require a cosmic stick and carrot to stay in line. That’s very different from the non religious. They are the ones who do right simply because it’s the right thing to do.
“Morality” is an innate instinct in all social species. It exists because it is necessary for survival. In humans, we developed religion which allows us to believe it’s something defined by the supernatural and the supernatural has the ability to absolve us of the consequences of our actions and inactions, which allows some to believe they can transgress those “morals” with minimal consequence. That’s why humans, with religion, tend to have higher rates, per capita, of things like murder than animals without religion , like dogs…
That’s not to say that no religious person has morals. It’s just that it’s easier for some adherents to justify not following them, especially in religions where you can repent and be forgiven. Why worry about being a good person if you can get the same reward without the effort?1
u/AnyBirthday418 8h ago
You guys who always bring up religious people are too confident in human beings to remain orderly if the laws were dropped.
Non religious people do things for similar reasons as religious people. No need to stand on a fake sense of superior morality.
1
u/JoseLunaArts 16h ago
Morality creates a better world for those who will outlive us, that includes any descendants of existing people.
We have this crappy world because immoral people were allowed to do immoral things to the design of the current system and to the values of society. And that happened for way too long.
For example, 100 years ago, there was the Great Depression. People still had community spirit. When a farmer lost his farm because of the crisis and there was a forecloure, other farmers in the surroundings gathered at the auction and did not allow anyone else to participate, and they bought the farm and returned it to the original owner.
You can also see the founders of the company Hewlett Packard treating their employees decently, like human beings with needs, not like merely a discardable human resource when they were alive.
So guess what has changed. Families are dysfunctional, companies treat people as a human resource, government obey donors not voters, and churches are a business model. Immorality has polluted every institution in our society. Morality sets the rules for long term survival of societies. Those immoral societies end up self destroying and collapsing after a period of decadence/decay.
This is why morality has not disappeared. Many immoral societies have collapsed in human history. The problem is when you live in a decadent society. Our human lifespan is not long enough to outlive a decadent society, unless there is an accelerating factor.
I anticipate at least 40 years of decay from now.
1
u/BullPropaganda 16h ago
That depends on your own moral compass. I would feel bad about being a bad person, and I try to avoid hypocrisy
1
1
u/ShezeUndone 15h ago
We all define morality differently. We can't all be perfect all the time. But you have to live with yourself. Define your personal boundaries in such a way that you live within them and still look at yourself in the mirror.
1
u/aoibhealfae 14h ago
Its to filter the people who genuinely feel good when doing bad things. Because these kind of people make pikachu sad face when they felt questioned about the things they normalized like enslaving people, murdering people etc. These kinds of people exist and think they can do bad thingd to others because they can and because people would do bad stuff at them and they had to be the ones who was higher and superior to get away doing whatever they want.
Morality and ethics was just to provide context and spell things down. Its not about being transactional, its about the humanity and the capacity of inhumane things that people can do.
2
u/Electronic_Hippo2968 14h ago
I get what you mean. Some people don’t just do bad things out of necessity, they genuinely believe they’re entitled to do whatever they want as long as they can get away with it. And that’s probably the scary part.
But here’s something I’m curious about: if morality helps us recognize and prevent inhumane behaviour, where does that sense of right and wrong actually come from? Is it something we’re born with, or something society teaches us?1
u/aoibhealfae 13h ago
That's how philosophy take its roots by questioning these things for thousands of years and psychology grew from ideas and observations by trying to understand why people don't necessarily stick to what was objectively good and still ended up doing objectively bad. There are people who felt nothing about others and simply want to satisfy their baser needs to fill their empty soul. A lot of us held sets of principles and standards that keep us at bare minimum functioning.
What seemed morally good and morally bad was simply about context. Like not all psychopath are murderous violent killers... there's some who can do genuinely good and benefit the society like surgeon or military officer and such that required certain level of inhumanity to be effective at their line of work. The person don't need to empathize with a dying patient while clipping aneurysms to save their life. The person don't need to worry about whether the enemy soldier have family and kids. And there's people who claimed they're highly empathetic emotionally sensitive person because they feel so deeply and yet they can be raging narcissists who view people as tools to be used and abused and genuinely won't understand why people don't them being who they are and wont process it because they only feel right when others do what they want and everyone was wrong and being purposefully difficult against them. Things like goodness, kindness, loyalty etc were desirable virtues because they presented an idealized self to be aspired towards while evil, selfishness, greed etc were undesirable because they represented the extremes that influence themselves and the people around them. And we all mask to survive and sometimes there's people who were so preoccupied with maintaining appearances of certain perceived virtues (religiousity, status etc) because they need something hide behind when the inevitability happened.
At the end of the day, we are all amalgams of what we're born into, what we're taught, what we absorbed from this world and everyone around us. Each societies have its acceptable norms that was constantly shifting, the middle ground and the extremes. My society's moral values and acceptable norms may differ from yours for instance. And does it matter to have someone else validate us if we're a good or bad person? There's no direct answers for that because we all have the capacity to be both and not and we can try to seek answers, do a lot of self-reflection and thinking...and failing that and manifesting the opposites. But ultimately, all that matter about these questions was who we want to be at the end. The person who we can be comfortable being proud about. We are allowed to feel shame and guilt and such but those feelings doesn't mean we lack morality or zeal of righteousness... it's just being human.
1
u/Bonkiest-Bee 14h ago
You do it for yourself. You do it to die with a clear conscience. You do it to live in peace. You do it to not add to the ugly of this beautiful world.
1
u/Electronic_Hippo2968 14h ago
I really like that last line, not adding to the ugly of this beautiful world. Maybe morality isn’t always about being a good person or following some rules, but about choosing what kind of person you want to be even when nobody is watching. Do you think people can genuinely learn to be that way, or is it something that comes naturally to some people?
1
u/Bonkiest-Bee 12h ago
I think it's both. I know I personally do it for myself. I had perfect examples of what not to do and be in this life, so I learned early on what I didn't want to be. I didn't want to add anything ugly to this world. That being said....it also is just in my nature to be kind and want good....so it is also natural to me.
1
u/AdOverall7619 14h ago
It depends if you lean in the religious aspect you believe there will be consequences in the afterlife for your actions in this life.
If you lean secular than the reason to be a good person is because society may shun you if you act out of the norm.
Ethier way you swing it doesn't matter, just because you are good doesn't mean you will enjoy life (usually the opposite in my experience)
1
u/Dr-Slay 14h ago
Morality is harm-navigation logic. It doesn't have a point per se, it is a process and serves a fitness function in an evolutionary context.
The "if" portion of your question is a brilliant highlight of the asymmetry inherent in life; harm is open-ended (a bottomless pit) and its capacity to be coped with or prevented is finite in local time. Over deep time it all ends. The notion that there can be a "good life" suffers an existence bias; if compared to the original empty set everything is worse than that absence, but other than that it's a great question everyone should think about before they fuck kids into this hellhole.
1
u/Practical-Initial738 14h ago
There are lots of great points that people make in their responses. Without getting into a lot the logistics, it is just my own practice to “do the right thing.” I just feel that as the most intelligent creatures here on earth with all the capabilities, knowledge, and resources, that we have an obligation to be good stewards of life’s circle. Whether we get a better or worse deal out of it than our fellow humans will always remain an issue. My focus is that I do the right thing!
1
u/purplezaku 13h ago
That’s reductive;
Being “bad” doesn’t mean you always get rewarded and not punished or some other negative outcome
On top of that there is no “good” action 100% of the time or “bad” action 100% of the time
The world isn’t some book or movie where the author determines what is right and wrong
1
u/Beneficial_Middle_53 13h ago
Just bc something isn’t guaranteed, doesn’t mean it isn’t statistically more likely to improve your life. If you do harm to others, they and their loved ones will want to do harm to you. You are also always a witness to your own life, so doing something you perceive as wrong will change how you view yourself affecting your confidence and contribute to wasting thoughts and time that could have been spent productively or bettering your life. The inverse is also true, and being someone that others want to see succeed will give you more opportunities or at least “put you in the room”
1
u/Realistic-Safety-565 12h ago
Morality is not a cosmic force guaranteeing anything, it is a framework for groups of people to follow. The main goal is to make everyone follow the same rules, thus making them predictable and easier to coordinate with, so people don't get in each others way. The fact that while everybody follows the rules,everybody wins, is more selling point than a goal (See the prisoners dilemma).
Of course some people are smart and ruthless enough to game the system - which is inevitable for any such system. Notice that for dishonest people to be really successful, most people they meet need to be reasonably honest (prisoners dilemma again). As system is meant to coordinate groups, not enable individuals, ruthless individual becoming successful by gaming the system is more a fluke than a bug.
1
u/Hopper_Wulf 12h ago
I think it boils down to empathy, if you want to be treated a certain way, you should treat others that way. When we have empathy, we understand how certain actions make us feel, and don’t want to inflict pain on others.
1
u/CoolTieGuy 11h ago
I believe in the Bible. I don't think that doing the right thing necessarily helps you (the kindest person I've ever met was my wife, who died at 22 years-old). God defines what is right and commands us to do it.
1
u/erutuferutuf 10h ago
Just be good. Period!
If you being good just because of expecting good return, Then you are not truly being good.
It is not an investment. And even investment cannot promise positive returns.
1
u/Savannah_Sparrow 10h ago
For me personally, I just feel icky when I do icky things so I prefer not to do icky things. I try to “do unto others.” (Of course I fail sometimes but I try to learn from it not repeat whatever dumbass thing I did to hurt someone.)
1
1
u/WrongdoerTimely6510 10h ago
Morality is based in biology and goes back much further than humans. It is the basis of co-operation.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature01963 Monkeys reject unequal pay
Read, Good Natured- The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals
1
1
u/Electronic_Cattle898 10h ago
i didnt grow up that way but i learned that stuff through consequence and was lucky enough not to mess up my life that bad. i was raised crooked by crooked people and learned to be street smart. i'm grateful that i learned that you need balance the good and the bad and you need to practice good judgement. i'll break the rules if the rules dont make sense. yes its definitely about control. i'll tell my kids to make decisions based on logic rather than emotion. its better to be smart than kind. kindness and emotions are fine and we need them but also take note that those are usually the people that get taken advantage of and stepped on.
i learned that things like morality are important so we can function as a society and not a bunch of psychopaths but i learned that with maturity when i finally realized i wanted more for myself and was lucky enough to still be in a position to still obtain that.
1
1
u/Coldfire82 9h ago
There are intrinsic and extrinsic rewards to living your life by a code of morals.
Extrinsically, morality keeps communities alive. A community where you are constantly afraid that your neighbor will harm/exploit you when given a chance is a community that is dying. The more energy you have to spend protecting yourself from people who behave selfishly, the less energy you can spend on bettering your life and the life of your community. Behaving morally even at the expense of short term gain shows others that you can be trusted, and helps build a cultural norm where people are expected to be 'good' even when they have nothing to gain from it. Eventually, instead of having to exhaust myself looking out for own self interests, I'll have a community of people who help me out.
Intrinsically, there is something to be said about being stronger than your immediate impulses. If I can check my greed and self-interest, it's harder for someone to manipulate me using the promise of money or profit. There's also something to be said about being able to honestly reflect on your behavior and to be satisfied with who you are. If my desire to be 'good' outweighs my desire for material satisfaction, then I'm less likely to make choices that will haunt me in the future, and I'm more likely to love who I am, even if I didn't take the most lucrative path.
1
u/Kaurifish 9h ago
Your own judgment of yourself is pretty critical when you die. Subjectively you spend a very long time marinating in your own opinion of yourself before the lights go out. Do you want that to be your loved ones greeting you or hellfire?
1
u/justinwatt 9h ago
Your own happiness. But being moral has higher probability to give you quality relationships and a quality life.
1
u/Icy_Office_4797 9h ago
Morality is what we as a society have decided that we owe each other, because we universally acknowledge that acting morally is generally to the benefit of everyone. It also is (to a degree) an innate belief. Look at some of the behaviors in other primates when one of them engages in an immoral behavior like stealing.
1
u/Bright_Eyes83 9h ago
it's something you have to decide for yourself. you will be held socially accountable. so how good of a liar are you and how do you feel about screwing others over? that's the balance
1
u/Ordinary-Maximum-639 9h ago
"Even though I was raised Catholic, I’m not religious today. I’ve always believed that morality isn't about following a script—good people do bad things, and bad people do good things. For me, kindness isn't something I force because I'm afraid of divine punishment; it’s just who I am. My parents definitely taught me accountability and that actions have consequences, but having empathy and carrying a bit of others' pain has always felt natural to me.
Don’t get me wrong—I’ve made mistakes, and I’ve been hurt by others. But I choose to let those experiences teach me rather than harden me. That’s why it’s so heartbreaking to look at the world today. I feel like we’ve lost our sense of mutual accountability. It’s even wearing down my husband, who is growing angry and cynical about people. I refuse to let the world change my nature, but I do think we need a cultural shift. Change starts with parenting; if you raise selfish children, you can’t be surprised when they grow into selfish adults.
To me, religion has very little to do with being a good person. In fact, I’ve seen it used as a shield. I know people—including family members—who act like extremists, break their own commandments daily, and then use church to absolve themselves. It feels more like a cult of self-delusion than faith. Look at history: so much blood has been spilled in the name of religion.
Ultimately, morality is a choice. Even if someone grows up with poor values, they still choose their actions.
Right now, because there are no consequences, people just look away from suffering and say, 'not my problem.' We are reaching a tipping point where we need real accountability again. Doing good shouldn't be a question you have to debate; if you have to question whether to be a decent human being, it's time to evaluate who you really are."
1
u/LazyFoundation8917 9h ago
Morality is how you choose to live your life. Nothing else is really in your control.
1
u/moogmarmaladebeats 9h ago
If humans were inherently immoral, we wouldn't have made it this far. It's a survival tactic.
1
u/Low-Landscape-8984 9h ago
being good or bad doesn't guarantee good or bad outcomes. there's no correlation. if you aren't religious then there's not really any standard for morality and it is all subjective. personally i believe that all people are "bad" and fall short of the glory of God, and that only God is good. that's why we need God's forgiveness.
1
1
u/Ornery-Magician-6644 8h ago
Being bad gets you in bad company. You have to look over your back all the time. Mess with the wrong people and cross them and they will kill your family in front of you before they kill you
1
u/BLumDAbuSS 8h ago
morality is a man-made construct designed to better your chances at mating
follow these rules and you'll be better accepted into society with more potential to reproduce
1
u/adamjames777 8h ago
If you believe that the purpose of life is to benefit yourself at every turn then you’ve already jettisoned morality. Vague, hollow concepts like ‘success’, ‘happiness’ etc are entirely subjective and have nothing to do whatever with morality.
Life isn’t a reward system. Being good isn’t a choice, it’s a nature. True virtue doesn’t know it is virtue, therefore it is real virtue. Good people are not good to get a good life.
Morality is there to keep you sane, to be able to know you did the right thing no matter the consequences for yourself or what it does to your life, might even cost you it.
1
u/Chick-Fil-A_Guest 8h ago
I find it fulfilling to have morals and values and I'm agnostic. It feels right 🤷♀️ it's more about the impact on society and a legacy. Everyone dies eventually, but a positive impact can be passed down forever, even if you don't have kids.
1
1
u/scarlettcrush 8h ago
As I see all of the most problematic people in my family getting rewarded while I who have supported myself caused no trouble and asked for nothing. Get that nothing regularly. I'm starting to wonder myself.
1
u/DevilStickDude 8h ago
No choice anyways. You are either going to strive to be a "good person" or not care and strive in other ways, but its your enviroment that made you that way.
1
u/Ok-Pipe5692 8h ago
Selfish people were raised to be selfish
Misogynists were raised that way - by their mothers no less! Abusive spouses as well as their victims, that’s how they were raised. They hear tell of morality and might hold others to it, but their parents taught them through example
1
1
u/Fabulous-Internet188 8h ago
It catches up to most eventually. Natural selection chooses for moral groups for a reason.
1
1
u/Traditional_Put_8254 6h ago
When you run a race, you aren’t guaranteed to win, but does that mean you should just not bother entering in the first place? The act of putting effort into a specific goal makes that goal more likely to become your reality. I want to live in a good world, with a good life, and good relationships, so I use my moral compass to further myself toward that goal. Likewise, I also want the people around me to have good lives, so for me, being good to others FEELS good.
1
u/MindlessAirline9832 6h ago
Not sure either. I’ve been trying to do the “right” thing but it end up getting me into trouble.
1
u/Xiccarph 6h ago
Humans are social and how you treat others can affect how you are treated. That’s it.
1
1
1
1
u/PBJRaccoonDaycare 5h ago
It’s just kind of baked in for most people.
If it’s not “baked in” for you, maybe read up on how other people without the internal compass have formulated their own moral structures.
1
u/Sain-Says 5h ago
Morality and duty are relative to each of our personal situations. What may be moral for one, does not necessarily imply morality for another. Sometimes you have to be selfish to realize the true value of morality anyway. So who's to say selfishness is not conducive to morality?
That's just a question to reframe how we think of morality altogether. Case by case basis. Nation by nation basis.
1
u/External_Platform445 5h ago
Its not so much about what you get for making the morally right choice or being able to get away with being dishonest, it's more about being able to look at yourself in the mirror and being ok with what you see. I admit I dont make the morally right choice on every occasion, but I do it enough that I'm proud of the guy I see in the mirror
1
u/KevineCove 5h ago
Game theory. If everyone behaves selfishly, the outcome is worse for everyone. The more repeated interactions you have with them, the more accountability there is for selfishness.
1
u/dassketch 5h ago
When we stopped normalizing stabbing people in the face, dicks started getting out of control. Being a decent person protects bad people. We don't because some people feel bad about being mean.
1
u/Distinct_Routine1600 5h ago
Contrary to popular belief, most of the time bad people experience success in spite of who they are, not because of it. People want to help/be with good people generally. And very often times the success that bad people have will come apart spectacularly at some point in their life, or at the very least they will find themselves alone and unhappy. Obviously there are exceptions to all rules, but generally good people end up happier and while being good doesn’t guarantee an easy/successful life, it certainly helps.
1
u/Short_Basket2701 5h ago
I prefer to sleep well at night knowing I did the right thing. It might not benefit me but at least I won't betray my morals and values. It's better to stay true to yourself rather than watching your soul decay and die.
1
1
u/AchillesTheLegend007 4h ago
People live in groups and because of that we have developed morality to make living in large groups easier and safer. Morals are obviously a social construct and not real. So it’s up to you if you follow them. I personally do because it’s so ingrained in me and it feels better. But if you value material stuff more then you’ll have more options being immoral
1
1
1
u/Kind_Inside931 4h ago
The way I look at it is that the Universe is always watching and keeping tabs. If you are truly a selfish degenerate who mistreats people and uses them just to help yourself rise up, I think Karma will come for you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but forever has a way of coming early. Years ago, I hurt someone badly, and the Universe made sure it punished me major. Don’t fuck with the Universe.
1
u/Elegant_Challenge945 4h ago
People are flawed and I don’t think there’s one answer to this. Bad people can do good things. Good people can do bad things. Plenty of good people have found success while plenty of bad people have gotten what they deserve. Vice versa. There’s no point to anything in the end.
But being moral is up to you. I think you should always strive to be good. But that’s not everyone. I would also fuck someone over if I thought they deserved it but does that make me bad?
It’s all subjective.
Unless you’re like societally bad and you know what I mean.
Live by your own moral code
1
1
u/Jazzlike-Payment-105 4h ago
My logic is that if we all act like selfish assholes, the world would be a really crappy place to live. As humans, we collectively do better when we work together.
So although the liars and cheaters do indeed win at times, good people win a lot too.
Besides that, I'd rather die of old age knowing I'd tried to make the world better, compared to being completely selfish and knowing I'd done a lot of harm.
1
u/ChinaSoulQueen 3h ago
This reminds me of Kohlberg’s three levels of moral development. Level 1 is about rewards and punishments. You’re good because you expect something good in return or want to avoid consequences. Level 2 is about social expectations, following rules and being seen as a good person. Level 3 is where morality comes from your own internal principles, like justice, compassion, and fairness, even when society disagrees or there’s nothing to gain.
I think your question is coming from level 1, where morality is viewed as a transaction.
But the whole point of moral development is moving beyond that. We don’t have to be good because life rewards us for it. We can be good because we believe it’s the right way to treat others.
1
u/tennoskoom_ 3h ago
It doesn't need to be guaranteed. Being good increases the chance of you having a better life.
Just as being bad increases the chance of a worse life.
1
u/LopsidedTaste9106 3h ago
Being a good person allows you to live with yourself, look yourself in the mirror, and like what you see.
This makes any future issue less difficult to deal with. Bad karma begets illness, trouble, and consequences.
1
u/No_Trade_7315 3h ago
Kant said, actions are not good or bad based the consequences they produce; good actions are good in-themselves.
Consequentialists say the opposite, good actions are actions that have good consequences. There are different ideas about what constitutes a “good consequence”. The most popular flavor is utilitarianism.
You seem to have adopted a Kantian view of morality, and are underwhelmed that actions that are seemingly good in themselves, do not always yield good outcomes.
Even if there is no such thing as an objective good, having a sense that there is adds conscience to one’s actions. Without a sense of morality, imagine how much worse people would treat each other.
1
u/TheHarlemHellfighter 3h ago edited 3h ago
If those factors were guaranteed to those who believed in and practice a good sense of morality, would it be morality to begin with?
It’s mostly a question of how you’d like your world to be. It’s just that some of the morally questionable things done create a reality of illusions and uncertainty. Sure, the person lying might get ahead, but in your mind, is that the way you want to live and construct your own universe?
It’s also because most of the morally questionable things that can be done fracture our collective sense of reality too. It’s like a lie and the truth. We can agree on something and that makes us more likely to work together. If someone lies, there’s nothing to base our reality in as it’s a falsehood presented as. This leads to disharmony which is automatically destructive as it separates us.
I just think the reason why some people are different with their sensibilities regarding morality is because we all have different experiences that alter our beliefs from time to time. Or at least bring those values into question to determine whether or not to abandon, update or alter our belief system.
Not to mention, what ever moral imperatives were placed on us while we developed.
1
u/Azureflames20 3h ago
I don’t seek to do morally good because I think I’ll get something in return. I do it because it’s morally good
1
1
1
1
u/The_Wise_Seven 3h ago
If we were only moral and good because we got a reward, where does the purpose of being moral and good come from, if not from the necessity of morality itself?
1
u/Capital_Scratch2514 3h ago
Sinners pay in the next life, fools pay in this one.
Smart+good=rewarded in this life and the next. Dumb+good=pays in this life,rewarded in the next
Smart +evil=rewarded in this life, pays in the next Dumb+evil=pays in this life and the next.
1
u/jakeofheart 3h ago
You shouldn’t do what’s right to get rewarded. You should just do it because it’s the right thing to do.
1
u/willow_glade 3h ago
There is no official "point" in an absolute moral sense. We evolved to be a social species that survives through cooperation, and while we also evolved a very adept ability for introspection that lets us analyze and discuss whether something really is good or bad behavior, total asocial behaviors disrupt society.
Our ancestors would kick out asocial people unless they brought something to the table worth keeping them around for. So most of us have inherited instincts to benefit the tribe and society, because it was was and is good for both society and us, and bad when we weren't useful.
Even now, the asocial people that have managed to put themselves in charge clearly are not delivering results that are beneficial to society, and are stunting our ability to adapt further as a species, and the results are increasingly catastrophic for the planet and ourselves.
1
u/Grouchy-Solution8087 2h ago
Because good people want to be good not only when it benefits them. The ‘goodness’ comes from doing good even when there’s an easier or more personally beneficial option
1
u/CheekyPunker 2h ago
Because it not only makes you feel good but betters the world and people and society as a whole
1
u/ClassicNo6622 2h ago
As Nietzsche once put it, "Morality is herd instinct in the individual." Morality is not about benefitting the individual, it's about benefitting the collective. If we all ran around doing whatever we felt like civilization would collapse in no time.
Just because a handful of people get away with things that the majority disagrees with doesn't mean every person that violates the social contract goes unpunished. And just because you abide by the social contract doesn't mean you are owed anything for being an upstanding member of society.
1
1
1
u/Respawn_in_3 2h ago
we don't do good things because its for a better life, we do it because it's what is right lol
1
u/Impressive_Clue_9193 2h ago
I mean, if everyone on the planet adhered to a reasonable level of morality and were all genuinely good, the world would absolutely be a lot better and shit would not be so bad rn. But if everyone on the planet said fuck it it would only get worse
1
u/Lumpy-Blackberry-718 2h ago
Generally speaking, if you choose to be an asshole, it's really not a great life.
Sure you could steal something and get away with it. So what? You might not get away with it. And a single theft is a trivial benefit.
And then if you tell anyone, good people will judge you. If this is your general MO in life youll either have a lonely life with lots of secrets to maintain, or you'll have to surround yourself with bad people.
1
1
u/Dangermouse454 2h ago
I’ve been saying the moral argument has failed for a couple of decades after I had this thought, too.
1
u/Calm_Leek_1362 2h ago edited 2h ago
Many recent philosophers and theorists (most notably nietzsche) would say this is a feature and not a bug. To be noble (wealthy) is good, to be a villain (means villager) is evil. We are taught a morality that binds the lower classes that is ignored by the powerful.
Kings were made from regional war chiefs that raided and took what they wanted. They teach the peasants not to rise up against them just like they took power in the first place.
Being a good person, as you understand it, is useful to existing power structures. If you give to charity, the government and elites don’t have to solve those problems. If you follow the laws, you will be following rules set by the wealthy to ensure their continued control over society.
Looking at the billionaires in the US, they lie to investors, they rig the laws, election maps and lobby Congress. They steal other people’s work and crush competitors with unfair competitive practices.
Everything about what constitutes “a good person” is dictated by preserving power structures. What you were raised to believe is good, is a reflection of your culture’s power structures. The most likely outcome of following such guidelines, is a mediocre survival. The point of moral codes is social control. The point of studying ethics is to hopefully see through the ideology we’ve each been burdened with.
1
u/JoffreeBaratheon 2h ago
To set an example for your children to be less selfish, because unlike adults, children will be stupid as fuck acting on their own selfish impulses. Best to wait for them to be adults to learn to put themselves above others and actually benefit from that mindset.
1
u/ivealwaysbeenaperv 2h ago
I treat others the best a can is because I have empathy. I don't want others to suffer
1
u/cmstyles2006 2h ago
for the sake of those around you and not hating yourself. is the general betterment of others not a worthwhile goal?
1
u/Plastichunter69 2h ago
There literally is no point of morality as its incredibly subjective. Sure, a huge amount of people will feel the same way about things, but at the end of the day its all irrelevant as its a learned behavior so to speak.
1
u/CaramelLittle7537 1h ago
To have good mental health. Being a bad person affects you directly or indirectly.
1
1
u/Distinct-Fly-2374 1h ago
I think the point is just that we have it. We have the question in and of itself. No other creature anywhere in the universe can or does do this. But we do.
Invariably when you look at the brains of psychopath murderers, for example, you see the brain is always fucked up in some capacity. Something physiological happened and hijacked morality and turned it into something else. We know you shouldn't murder people. We know you shouldn't rape children. We know you shouldn't step on other people to rise up, and treat them as nothing but a stepping stool. We know all of this, intrinsically.
I think that's it. It's that simple. We know what are right and wrong and then we fight each other pretending we don't.
I would think the fact the question even comes up at all, is enough. And the point. I don't know how to make further sense of it beyond that, personally.
1
1
u/kyoko78 1h ago
We are beings who live within a community. Most of the moral values we hold stem from society’s shared understanding of morality. For example, eating dog meat is considered normal in China, whereas in the West, people are uncomfortable with it.
Until the last century, people did not have the chance to live so independently. Therefore, do not compare what I have recounted with the perspective of your own world. You must also take into account the possibilities available in those times.
If you were excluded from society, your chances of survival diminished. And the further back you went in history, the more pronounced this decline became. If you try to act clever and deceive others in a small, ordinary village, you will eventually be cast out of that community. Once left on your own—without shelter, food, or security—your risk of dying naturally increases. If we go back to the Stone Age, being cast out of the community meant becoming prey for wild predators.
In other words, one of the reasons for morality is that it is something humans developed so they could live together properly within a community and survive more effectively in the face of nature. But this is a very serious argument, I know. You might ask questions like, "So, is no one truly moral? Is everyone's morality a lie?" Since I don’t know the true nature of everyone involved, I can’t say for certain what they are like, but I can provide some examples.
In recent years, people's respect for one another has clearly diminished. Things that society once deemed morally objectionable are now often viewed as normal—and even practiced—by others. Even if excluded from society, they will still be able to work, buy or rent a home, purchase food, and continue living. I’m not talking about things like murder. I'm talking about sharing everything you eat and drink on social media—something that used to be considered bad manners. Questioning parental authority. And many things regarding marriage.
Or another thing: Someone you once viewed as a good person changing after coming into money. Money (power, value) does not change a person. It merely reveals the truth within them. When a person lacks power, they cannot engage in actions that are frowned upon by society. They must, in one way or another, bear the consequences. But once he gains power, he doesn’t have to take responsibility for his actions. He can use his power to evade those responsibilities. Then people think he has changed. No. The thing is, he thinks that once he gets power, he doesn't have to follow the rules anymore and can just get away with whatever he does. If a person can still treat others well and abide by societal rules once they have attained power, then that person is morally good.
Furthermore, no one guarantees that being morally good will lead to a good life for you. Beyond what I mentioned above, morality is for the individual; it is one of the things that enables a person to live at peace with themselves.
1
u/Separate-Passage-709 1h ago
Society. In short, that’s your answer.
In long, our sense of morality came about naturally when we were evolving, living in much smaller groups, and evolved with our understanding of our world. (Even chimps have a sense of fairness.) But it’s still society’s doing. if a baby could somehow survive isolated on an island to adulthood they would likely not have much resembling the behavior we’d consider moral.
1
u/5HotDogsLater 1h ago
Well, you never know when consequences will come to visit you. It's not like life is incredibly predictable. Those consequences may come through legal means, or they may come through extra-legal means. If you're breaking a bunch of laws and fucking people over, there's a good chance you can fuck over the wrong person. You could be sued into bankruptcy, shot or any other consequence you invited upon yourself through immoral behavior.
On top of that, unless you're a complete sociopath, most people feel bad about what they do to others they've wronged. That kind of behavior builds up and can be pretty bad for your mental health if you're just a regular, mentally stable person.
The other very obvious answer is that if everyone in society behaved the way your describe, we quickly wouldn't have a society. "Everyone out for themselves" is not a good survival mechanism for people. We are a social species and in many cases we need other people to survive the day-to-day. Especially with how complex our civilization has become over the last couple hundred years. You simply have to trust people you don't know, to do their job to keep their portions of civilization working correctly.
All of that is based on a system of morality instilled by the society we exist in. I'd honestly saw we are moving towards a low trust society now, if we already haven't made the shift and it clearly has made things less stable for your average person.
1
u/Flor_De_Azahar 1h ago edited 1h ago
The point of being good is to fit into society and become part of its harmonious flow. Fitting in is not necessarily a bad thing. Being honest and kind—if such traits are required for a society to endure—grants you a sense of belonging and security that you would not have if you chose to defy moral expectations.
The point of being good is to ensure, in most cases at least, the goodwill and protection of others. While this might appear to be a selfish motive from a certain perspective, I see it simply as the instinct that has kept us alive and united in societies for millennia.
I believe that if we view things in polarized terms, we tend to fall into the mindset that "being good guarantees nothing." In real life, the notion of an absolute is merely idealism. What actually exist are tendencies. If you are good—that is, if you meet social expectations regarding morality and ethics—people will generally tend to treat you better than if you did not. This does not mean you will never be mistreated; after all, you are not the only person in the world with a sense of judgment, and others—the majority, I would argue—may have flawed moral standards. It is also possible that you might fail to meet the moral expectations of a particular group, even while adhering to your own.
Personally, I believe that being good is necessary because it provides moral peace of mind. You may well be judged by others, but you can remain at ease, knowing who you truly are and that their perception does not align with reality.
1
u/familiarshadowkatt 1h ago
You're the one who has to live with yourself, and the real reflection of your character is how you behave when you think no one is watching.
1
u/LordXenusEvilMinion 52m ago
Cause being a mean person feels gross. I mean.. I guess if it doesnt feel gross to you, you might have bigger problems.
1
1
u/greendwelless 49m ago
I feel like being "good" is intrinsically rewarding. I have other "good" people in my life and we have "good" relationships and my life is way more rich and meaningful in ways that couldn't be imagined when I was enacting my harmful ways. I didn't think very highly of myself or others now I have self compassion and compassion for others and it doesn't make it any easier to see the harm around me but I do feel safer. I also love myself and I'm happy about who I am and the impact I have on the world, which I believe to be rewarding.
1
1
u/Eldernerdhub 42m ago
It sounds like you're becoming aware of the program. Morals are optional, true. Just remember, morals are imaginary. They only exist because we wish them to. Even if you let them go, you can always return to your morals.
Personally, I am what I am. I am moral and immoral. Most people are too.
1
u/AI_ElectricQT 42m ago
To, throughout your life, and after it, inspire others to do better, rising up over ignorance, attachment and aversion, thus contributing in some small way to the gradual improvement, throughout history, of the lot of the human race.
1
u/Sal_Iko 28m ago
Morality is a religious concept. It has little bearing on reality. What you really want is ethics, which is justifiable and falsifiable actions.
Theory aside, in life the general idea is that both good things and bad thing are really the same thing. They have the same origin and something capable of good will also do bad. They are different manifestations of the same pattern.
From all the things that can happen in the universe only a tiny sliver would be considered "good" things because they are the things considered convenient to humans, or come meet human needs. Humans are finite and limited, so their set of needs is also constrained. This is why we talk about entropy as a bad thing, but it actually isn't. We need entropy to have change, which is taking decisions, allowing actions to have effect.
When you come down to individual humans it's even more extreme, because individuals have conflicts of interest. You might feel hurt by someone's actions, but in the perspective of that person what they did is necessary to protect themselves. The point is you also have to protect yourself. There's no virtue in letting someone else have priorities over yours just because "it's what good people do". That's a type of personality disorder.
Being good or being happy shouldn't be your objectives in life, but rather being effective and competent. Being able to acknowledge and correct for mistakes, being able to improve as you go, being conscious of what you are doing and what outcome you expect out of it, being able to tell the implications of that outcome, being able find your locus of control.
You'll see that people who complain a lot about life are those with a lot if ideas about what's good or bad, how things should be. It becomes an ego problem. They start judging other people to some imaginary standard, rather than real life constraints. These people won't actually do useful things in life because this is all a big distraction, a waste of time and cognition.
Two rules of thumb about this:
- The only time to help someone is when they ask for it. The sense of agency is more important than getting problems solved, even if people don't realize it, they sense it as their bodies produce emotions of resentment.
- The only time to complain about something is when you are asking help and feel confident there are ways someone else is able to fix things.
I suppose it's also valid to complain when you are asking if someone is able to help, but you get the point. Use tools appropriately to the job, these are mental tools.
1
u/Local-Emu9654 22m ago edited 1m ago
Why do you say, “being good, doesn’t guarantee a good life?” Doesn’t it depend on one’s definition of good? Mathew 10:39: “Those who try to gain their own life will lose it; but those who lose their life for my sake will gain it.” Mark 10:18 states: “So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”” “For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” - Philippians 1:21. We don’t really care about our lives here on Earth other than in terms of how we may be of use to Him and His purpose for us. No one is ever fulfilled when acting in the service of themselves, rather it’s in our service to others that we find fulfillment. “Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.” - Galatians 5:1.
Slaves to Righteousness:
“15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin,which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to Godthat, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” - Romans 6:15-23
I do find it strange how anyone can discuss morality without God or faith. Morality comes from God; whether it’s the 10 commandments or our conscience, we are convicted when we disobey God. The golden rule is also from God. We can ignore morality but we do it at our own peril. The Death that Paul talked about wasn’t carnal, it was eternal damnation of one’s soul.
23
u/jglenn9k 10h ago edited 2h ago
Because doing immoral things actually makes me feel bad.