r/classicwow • u/SeaGoat24 • 9h ago
Humor / Meme Sneak preview of next week's racial adjustments
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u/One_Recognition385 8h ago
i like how humans are the best lol
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u/Wolfy4226 8h ago
Finally they put some soul into the game again.
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u/googlesomethingonce 8h ago edited 8h ago
We kinda just need them to state what their goal is, fair to everyone or not. They need to address that certain races are expected be the best X class? If not, then their goal should just remove racial stat benefits and just give us flavor, ie plainsrunning, canabalism, treasure hunting, etc.
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u/SlashOfLife5296 8h ago
Their goal is to appease players. The problem is that they need to be ignoring players
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u/Syfogidas_HU 8h ago
There need to be diverse situations and encounters so that there's no simple stable "best" answer across the board. Horizontal progression opens the door to just this.
Funny how they had the golden recipe, and it just turned to dust in their hands.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Net4365 3h ago
They actually said they weren't aiming for fairness like 10 times in the last podcast.
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u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 6h ago
I wish they would just drop all passive combat racials. Go with flavor over combat. I feel like there is far more interesting design space in things like treasure finding, plainsrunning, cannibalism, and shadowmeld than any % increase racials.
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u/Bigglez1995 8h ago
Orc still OP /s
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u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 6h ago
Well, this change, plus their active gives them a 0.26% dps Increase on average over the course of a 3 minute fight, which is totally unacceptable. It's even more if the fight is 3 minutes and 15 second long, because then they get to use their active twice! The meta is just going to be orc-stacking. Utterly broken
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u/Sylvarius 8h ago edited 7h ago
Yet half of this sub will look at you dead in the eye and tell you that yesterday's racials rework were NOT homogenization lmao
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u/SeaGoat24 8h ago
To be fair, the only real homogenisation was the dwarf and tauren racials being reskinned versions of the same thing (and both worse than the human version), which is what inspired this post.
Not a fan of yesterday's changes overall, but it's nowhere near this bad (yet).
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u/Sylvarius 7h ago
The changes to on-use and to passives for crit, crit damage, haste racials etc over the course of the beta now results in a 1-2% DPS difference for pretty much all races and classes combinations.
Not saying that it's a good or bad thing, but they did normalize most of it.
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u/Syfogidas_HU 8h ago
Human and Orc too.
(I know, it's not the exact same, but that's beside the point. Getting rid of the weapon specialization just makes the game more bland.)
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u/ultra_casual 6h ago
Weapon specialization shouldn't have gone away. Just make it a standard thing where different races have different weapons.
Wep Spec = 1% crit and 1% dmg with your weapon.
Humans -> 1h swords + 1h maces Orcs -> 1h + 2h axes Dwarves -> Guns + maces etc etc
The +5 weapon skill was just too strong in Vanilla, I don't think devs (or players, at first) quite understood how much impact weapon skill has on endgame raid damage for melee classes. So nerf it a bit, but keep the idea.
So you have a weapon specialization for most races, plus a PVP-ish ability (Will of the Forsaken, Escape Artist etc), plus some other quality of life / noncombat thing like herbalism or wisp form.
It wouldn't be hard to come up with an interesting, well-varied set of racials that aren't totally homogenized but feel roughly balanced.
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u/Felstalker 4h ago
The +5 weapon skill was just too strong in Vanilla, I don't think devs (or players, at first) quite understood how much impact weapon skill has on endgame raid damage for melee classes. So nerf it a bit, but keep the idea.
Sod fixed the problem through ring "runes" that gave you a +5 into any weapon skill of your choice.
If they simply added a +5 weapon skill Ring enchant. You could keep the racials as a means to boost leveling players who select correct weapon types, but enable races without that racial to make up for the weakness with a enchant. Ideally the ring enchant would be exclusively for weapon skills, so you're saving gold and time on an enchant by having the racial and you're not actually stronger. At least, after you've hit 60.
They could even go so far as to make the enchant be a blacksmithing thing instead of a enchanting thing, if they so desired. IT is weapon classes specific after all.
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u/Ancient_Algae64 2h ago
I was gonna say, a lot of these issues in this build of the game are because they spent so many hours on SOD and refuse to use any of it. Its actually mind boggling they opted for this version of wow.
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u/JarredMack 7h ago
Their stated goal of keeping everything balanced within a few % basically requires homogenisation and is why a lot of retail classes end up feeling like the same thing. It's difficult to balance asymmetric classes/races and much easier to just make them all do the same thing and change some numbers, so the tendency will be for them to just do the latter over time so people don't whinge about the differences
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u/andynator1000 6h ago
What is homogenous to you about the troll racials vs the undead racials, for example?
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u/EronisKina 6h ago
What classes on retail play the same? I'm curious. Like all specs have different strengths and weaknesses.
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u/Dogballs2020 1h ago
Literally every single DPS spec plays the same. They're all the same builder/spender with a couple generic procs and 2 damage CDs. I still play retail, I'm not saying this as a retail hater.
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u/ElysiumSocialMember 6h ago
its also such a horseshit fallacy of a design goal for a multiplayer rpg. when you homogenize as heavily as modern mmorpgs do, you dont even solve the problem caused by imbalanced because people still prioritize the things that are .5% better and stigmatize the things that are 1% worse, even amongst people who are in that bottom of the barrel skill tier where it doesnt matter
they dont even accomplish what they set out to accomplish, so they just wash away everything interesting and nuanced for the illusion of balance rather than ever actually finding it
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u/Andvari_Nidavellir 8h ago
That’s imbalanced. The troll racial has a shorter name, making it quicker to read and thus gives troll players an unfair advantage as they get done reading their racials faster and can start questing sooner.
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u/Kyrhotec 8h ago
They should just remove all racials that effect combat. So stuff like dwarf treasure hunting can stay. Make up other racials to fill the gaps.
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u/Lematoad 1h ago
Why don’t they take the a dnd type approach? Have a collection of a few different traits you can choose from, so races have some versatility for their different classes. Axes on orcs trait sucks for mages, so give an alternative… or give them the ability to hold axes.
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u/MyNameIsUggggh 8h ago
Retail players: Whats wrong with that?
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u/Wait__Who 8h ago
Be sure to look under your bed for retail players before you sleep tonight. They sure are a boogeyman
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u/anxiety_elemental_1 8h ago
I mean, they did ruin the game with their stupid demands.
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u/let____go 7h ago
Yea ruined the game so hard it's still one of if not the most played MMORPG on the market.
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u/anxiety_elemental_1 5h ago
And Taylor Swift is one of the most popular artists. Doesn't make her good.
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u/iRDataNick 8h ago
Proof no one here plays retail
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u/Jasonius 8h ago
Not playing retail is one thing. Not playing and not bothering to use 2 mins to easily look up something before posting bullshit, is another.
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u/Old-Tie8770 8h ago
Ya but like…retail = bad
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u/anxiety_elemental_1 8h ago
Retail is bad lol
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u/detailerrors 8h ago
I mean it's fine if you dont like it but it's not objectively bad, it's still got a massive playerbase so obviously it's someone's cup of tea
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u/Front-Investigator68 8h ago
Literally though. People forget why classic players wanted… classic
“You think you do, but you don’t” mentality
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u/ImaginarySense 7h ago
Nobody forgets. Classic players never shut up about how they think Vanilla WoW is the best and most difficult video game ever released.
All this chest-pounding by middle-aged men who just want to re-live the feeling of being 10yo with no responsibilities.
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u/Jocic 8h ago
Retail is famous for it's balanced racials, yes, of course!
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u/Ancient_Algae64 2h ago
The players here would unironically love some of the racials in retail.
Earthen eating gems to get a permanent food buff but never benefiting from eating actual food or water.
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u/CookyKindred 8h ago
Except this is nothing like retail racials what so ever - Which have had NE dominating for years because of Shadowmeld.
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u/9022700102 7h ago
Quite often you see such complaints about retail and it’s kinda telling that some people don’t have a clue about current state of retail.
I’d love to see racial as homogeneous as they think they are on retail, then people won’t force themselves to only play dwarf or night elf lmao.
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u/Clymps 8h ago
Why do so many classic players create fake retail boogeyman’s to hate the game? The strongest and most dominant retail racials are literally shadowmeld and stoneform - two huge flavor based racials.
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u/Zallix 8h ago
Because retail=bad is free karma farming most of the time. Classic players need to have a boogeyman for why the game might not be able to meet their expectations so when they decide to quit they can post stupid shit like “THANKS TO ALL THE RETAIL PLAYERS DEMANDING CHANGES THE GAME IS RUINED.(see you on the next fresh classic vanilla servers launch!)”
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u/Budget-Ocelots 7h ago
Retail: Shadowmeld, shadowmeld, shadowmeld, shadowmeld, shadowmeld.
No one cares about DPS racials.
If you are going to parrot about retail andy, blame the classic andy for creating shadowmeld 20 years ago.
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u/HextechAlternator 6h ago
I mean, most top rated solo shuffle players in retail aren’t even Night Elves anymore, aside from rogues
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u/door_of_doom 6h ago
You gotta figure out the retail squatting situation you got going on in your head mate. Either charge them rent or kick them out.
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u/Scribblord 8h ago
That would require us to know what our racials even are
We evolved to not picking short races bc they sometimes suck for m+ bc gnomes have to swim through some puddles sometimes 💀
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u/testurmight 8h ago
Stone form belongs to short races and there have been seasons it was borderline mandatory for tanks. Shadowmeld always has great value even if you aren't doing meld skips. Racials absolutely do matter in M+ at the high end.
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u/Mawbsta 8h ago edited 6h ago
Just remove all of these racials. They provide no racial fantasy or gameplay decisions. You interact with these on the character creation screen and that's it. Completely uninteresting and just are there to arbitrarily make some races stronger than others I guess? Who would miss these racials if they were gone completely? Edit: I mean the %stat racials not all racials
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u/tobbe628 7h ago
This guy eats his bread stale
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u/Mawbsta 7h ago
I want to keep the actives and more flavorful passive racials. You think these random %stat racials are interesting? I would be surprised if anyone would care if these were removed
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u/tobbe628 7h ago
Okay, more flavorful bread.
Tell me, what would you like to see?Anything that makes the Races stand out is interesting in my book.
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u/Mawbsta 7h ago
The old weapon racials at least felt like it was based in some fantasy these just feel completely arbitrary. You won't feel these anyways so why do they exist? The other racials are actually fun or interesting. These just either don't matter or make you feel bad for picking a suboptimal DPS race
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u/the_man_in_the_box 8h ago
This is someone who’s never charged unexpectedly from shadowmeld to annihilate a clothie.
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u/Mawbsta 7h ago
Oh I don't mean remove all racials I mean remove all of the random %stat change racials and leave the actives/flavor passives that are actually interesting or provide fantasy.
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u/Apollo9975 6h ago
Because the same min/max behavior would occur on actives. Personally, I’m fine with different races being better at different things.
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u/Mawbsta 6h ago
They would still be better at different things due to the actives like you mentioned. This isn't about min maxing it's about completely uninteresting racial design that is no longer based in fantasy. And the damage stats aren't different races being better at different things it's way more objective now. 2% crit is just strictly better than the other racials unless we get to absurd levels of crit chance. Doing more damage than other races isn't interesting
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u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 6h ago
That's a cool advantage. It's a kind of combat advantage that isn't a pure, boring numeric increase.
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u/BramSandor 8h ago
I have the same opinion but the exact opposite conclusion. Who cares about a few points of dmg? Completely arbitrary dmg and utility that exists solely to give your character a real world feel, and any deficit can be made up easily with items and professions. The reason Orcs are good at axes is because they've been using them for generations. Humans developed Swords and hoarded their secrets, etc. etc.
After all it's not JUST a race, it's a whole assed culture with a specific upbringing tailored to war. It's flavorful RP for an RPG.
I thought Forever was supposed to be casual and simple, why are we treating it like an Esport???
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u/Mawbsta 7h ago
Wait can you please make a good faith justification of why these racials are good game design? I haven't seen anyone make an argument for it yet. The old racials used to be based in some race fantasy (dwarves are good with hammers etc). These are just completely arbitrary changes that casual players will never notice and sweats will just feel bad about unless you pick the meta. How do these make the game better? I am genuinely curious what the argument is.
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u/Claim_Zealousideal 6h ago
I kinda like the idea of having slight differences between each race ….i do like th old ones being more fantasy based but i can see where min/maxers get sweaty over 1% stuff . But there should be differences between races …. I mean if we just all gonna be the same why have races at all … just alliance body type 1 or horde body type 1
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u/Mawbsta 6h ago
We aren't the same we have active racials like war stomp, shadow meld, cannibalize, etc. we also have more interesting passives like the treasure find and plains running. The differences should be meaningful not arbitrary like 2% crit damage. If you just remove those random %stat changes no one would even notice
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u/IndyLohan 6h ago
Sure, with things like shatter curse, plainsrunning, touch of the grave, these are great thematic racial buttons. They feel correct. Yet, some are just not as powerful as others, in a way where tweaking those numbers won’t fix it. So you add baseline passive numbers to some of the weaker races as a design counterweight.
I don’t think there is quite a balance yet, but it’s a lot better than it was for most of the weapon spec classes. So correct philosophy, application still needs work. This has been my design Ted talk from a 15 year game dev.
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u/Mawbsta 6h ago
So you think it is purely a race balance reason? That makes sense in theory but feels like an impossible balance task to achieve because people are always going to just compare raid DPS/heal output against other races regardless of the QoL or flavor they bring. I don't think people would be upset about QoL or flavor racials not being "balanced" because they are much harder to directly compare. Now we have imbalance because of these racials implying that they are worsening the problem you claim they are trying to solve.
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u/IndyLohan 6h ago
as i said, i dont think it's there yet, but the idea of tying a raw stat to a flavor ability with varied viability in a raiding setting makes sense to "have your cake and eat it too".
I believe that purely cosmetic or fluff racials would be better, but blizz is insistent on making them matter. with that design constraint, i think the stat counterweight is the next best compromise.
That said, people are absolutely overvaluing even the old racials. In the big picture they wont matter in PvE. PvP, ya theres very clear frontrunners, but PvP has always been and will always be a broken mess.
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u/MastyTinge 7h ago
No one can, the argument just turns into people telling you to "just enjoy the game" or "this only matters to the top 1% of parsers, so it doesnt impact you just pick the race you want" so some people will pick their favourite race regardless so its not for them... so its for people looking to get any piece of power the game has to offer... and we would rather blizzard doesnt pick our race for us... but its also not for us? It's just a strange dynamic.
Rest of the racials are real flavour and rpg like, plainsrunning, treasure hunter, shadowmeld.
No one cares about a 2% crit racial except for the people who care about 2% crit... and we dont want it on racials.
In conclusion, its for no-one?
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u/dragdritt 7h ago
You misunderstand, he's trying to say that that he dislikes the "1% crit" passives, not the active racials like Shadowmeld that actually has some flavour to them.
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u/KilBorBloodBane 7h ago
WoW Forever and even Vanilla WoW aren't old school western RPGs. Vanilla was a new breed that helped accelerate the death of the old school RPG in mainstream.
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u/chaoseffect616 6h ago
The % damage racials are a complete waste of time. Should only be flavor or utility racials.
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u/patrickred887 8h ago
Next is: All Horde character have same size and height and same modell
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u/ayyyfamletsgo 29m ago
Add race changes to the barbershop too and enable transmog at level 1
*Edit: and free respecs in combat, I never want to experience anything adjacent to regret instead of rolling an alt in the game with alt points
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u/17000HerbsAndSpices 8h ago
Come on man...
If you really wanted to keep relative power levels then Gnome gets at least 2% here, maybe 3. Nelf also probably gets 2% but hidden passive bumps it to 3 if you are on PvP server lmao
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u/Kablump 8h ago
yeah theres only two directions they can go with to stop racial imbalance
Direction A.) is shrinking races into being meaningless cosmetics
Direction B.) Is expanding them so that there are multiple distinct good reasons to play every race that rivals specs in depth and creates variety that people will naturally want to gravitate to
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u/onlyheretobehelpful 7h ago
Sneak preview of 85% of the posts on this sub from now until eternity:
😭😭😭
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u/IGargleGarlic 5h ago
honestly I would respect Blizz a lot if they just took the piss out of the whiny players by doing this.
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u/Aggressive-Stand-585 8h ago
I dunno man, seems like Skyborne is a bit too OP, I really don't like that they already added P2W into the game and I hope they do another tuning pass over these racials soon.
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u/SvartrKukkSceand 8h ago
3% maths out in perfect circumstances to being about equal to the 2% crit.
And in real situations where you have to move and cant just stand and auto and attack and cast... the crit will be better.
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u/Aggressive-Stand-585 8h ago
Let me guess. You didn't read the post?
Or are you just not familiar with the concept of "a joke" ?2
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u/Choice_Protection_93 8h ago
P2 play one race is not pay to win, buddy. When you make over dramatic, nonsense arguments, it just makes you completely not worth listening to.
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u/Aggressive-Stand-585 8h ago
Dude you can't be serious! 1% crit is WAY better than 1% crit! That's blatant P2W!
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8h ago
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u/Aggressive-Stand-585 8h ago
Do you ever get tired of just being angry at everything or do you sometimes play along with a joke?
If not it must be a kinda sad life bro but you do you man.
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u/bootybob1521 8h ago
At this point just delete racials. You guys are such crybabies.
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u/Aggressive-Stand-585 8h ago
Lighten up, bootybob1521. OP's just joking. Even doom-gloomer like you must be able to see that lol.
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u/bootybob1521 8h ago
The rest of the sub must be joking too I guess.
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u/Aggressive-Stand-585 8h ago
Man you just HAVE to be miserable at all times huh?
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u/bootybob1521 5h ago
i'm miserable because everyone on this reddit is constantly calling for nerfs to classes and racials? got it. thanks for clarifying.
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u/Aggressive-Stand-585 4h ago
Because you raging so much an obvious joke flies above your head. Remember to breathe my guy. Your brain needs the air.
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u/gubigubi 8h ago
I wouldn't even be shocked is the sad part.
I gotta just stop paying attention to all news at this point because its just rage baiting me lol
I gotta let the disappointment find me naturally on its on when I experience it first hand.
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u/Nody_Hyebus 7h ago
I don’t want to be a negative nancy, but there are people who are seriously like this and I can’t fathom why, lol.
It’s to easy too say it’s the classic andy crowd hooting and hollaring, but I personally love the change, if nothing else because it’s more useful on average.
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u/PoGD1337 8h ago
Im fully for removal at this point, just add at least some unique passives and abilities, so people wouldnt cry that much
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u/Syfogidas_HU 8h ago
I don't like how now I am literally forced to play Human, with which I start in Elwynn which is actually a 1.7728% suboptimal xp/hour during the first levels for a priest. Could we just also pick our starting locations during character creation? What do you guys care how I enjoy my game huh?
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u/therob91 7h ago
I wish they would actually do this just to get people to shut up about it being perfectly balanced.
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u/throwaway1233213123 8h ago
Unironically this is what should be done. Combat racials should completely be removed from the game, or just racials in general
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u/Sekko09 8h ago
Racial should be utility and gimmick for open world. Like cannibalism, planeswalking, find tresure, etc. Those are good. Anything related to 'in combat' is bad.
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u/The-Only-Razor 7h ago
I agree with this. Racials can still be fun and flavorful without affecting combat.
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u/bibittyboopity 7h ago
I'd be sad if the combat utility went away. But I really don't love the no flavor damage ones.
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u/ayyyfamletsgo 28m ago
How'd people like that Legion PvP where everyone had the exact same gear and why aren't they still doing it?
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8h ago
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u/One_Recognition385 8h ago
you didn't see the meme with human racial change in there did you?
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u/PineappleOnPizzaWins 7h ago
Mm nothing was ever worse for WoW than people crying over single percent differences in theoretical DPS that won't matter anyway... if you're actually good you're gonna beat people who suck no matter what.
Every single class basically becoming the same is what drove me away from the game in the first place, I really don't give a fuck if there's minor differences.
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u/karrotwin 7h ago
Just play whatever race you think is OP. You're either wrong and an idiot and we don't need to hear about it, or you're right and you'll get to enjoy the benefits of that Forever. Win win.
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u/5panks 4h ago
r/classicwow: Blizzard these racials are way too unbalanced some of the races have terrible racials and others are really good.
Blizzard rebalances the racials.
r/classicwow: WTF Blizzard these racials are just different flavors of the same thing, there needs to be variety, it's okay for one race to be the best for a specific class.
Just proof that Blizzard can never win.
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u/mahvel50 8h ago
Hooray dwarf got a buff finally