243
u/RangeCreed 1d ago
She is calling to you paladins. We love our support classes lmao
48
2
u/Disaked1 1d ago
This is nest used by offtank spamming harmstring or hunter spamming wingclip
→ More replies (5)19
u/Kododie 1d ago
Afaik this thing was never actually worth using unless you raided with a lot of casters.
28
→ More replies (2)12
u/AwkwardCockroach1488 1d ago
Yeah almost no one raided with Nightfall in Classic because the browns and yellows were doing big numbers and the other classes weren't. Even with rolling Ignite Mage was a distant third.
5
u/kurQl 23h ago
Even with rolling Ignite Mage was a distant third.
In classic fire mage is better DPS than rogue. You can check the records on WCL.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Mondasin 15h ago
in 2019 classic on-hit weapons were bugged to where they wouldn't proc if you were on the gcd until naxx dropped. which is why it quickly stopped being a thing.
128
u/KashiofWavecrest 1d ago
This was basically the feeling us OG paladin players got from Blizzard from Nov 2004 to January 2007.
41
u/Uncreativity10 1d ago
At least holy was viable! Now we ain’t got shit :(
→ More replies (3)45
u/KashiofWavecrest 1d ago
"You'll wear a dress and you'll like it!" - Blizzard, 2005
You have the sickest armor in the game for your Tier 2, but, you'll need to pick up a mishmash of ugly cloth and leather gear to raid.
11
→ More replies (1)3
48
u/thattawaythrowaway 1d ago
Launch day census is gonna be a fucking riot.
28
u/Blobsobb 1d ago
It will still have a billion paladins unless streamers start churning out their ALL PALADINS WILL BE D TIER clickbait because the class is popular even when its bad.
They will probably be hilariously absent by the second raid tier though as people bounce off playing them really hard as all 3 of the specs are insanely flawed and play poorly.
Its one of those things people have been trying to explain for weeks now but people keep going
OMG THEY ARE SO STRONG AT LEVEL 20 HOW COULD THEY POSSIBLY LOOK BAD AT 60? CANT YOU SEE THIS LOW LEVEL DPS METER?
6
u/antariusz 22h ago
All the fucking video game tourists with 200k YouTube subscribers thinking back on what paladin was like 5 weeks ago.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Sweet_Arrival9559 19h ago
There's some terminally onlineness involved here to think random beta patch notes will effect the amount of paladins on launch of Classic+ lmao.
Paladins (and druids) are some of the most played classes in every version of WoW to ever exist because they have the best flexibility and class fantasy.
43
u/Round-Dragonfruit996 1d ago
I just wanted Holy Paladin buffs man!
instead I got well… that
→ More replies (1)9
u/Uncreativity10 1d ago
It’s so over. Idk if I want to gamble and roll hpal anymore. Keep getting burned going hpal even on retail (except this season)
→ More replies (1)4
u/LegitimateRule2457 22h ago
I was on the fence but now I’m going resto shaman instead, maybe a future holy pally alt a year in when they fix them?
49
u/SportBoring3533 1d ago
Blizzard: we wont give up until only human mages are left
2
u/antariusz 22h ago
Human mage and Tauren warriors as the only viable classes. Everyone else is just to support them. As Kevin Jordan intended.
6
62
u/Educational_Public14 1d ago
Thanks esfand
46
u/Dampbridge 23h ago
He made sure to give blizzard some S tier shaman changes while he was at it.
Remember he has a lot of experience getting to level 11 on hardcore shamans.
12
79
u/Malohn 21h ago
Blame Esfand. He ruined paladins and he proudly would agree. He has coerced the devs into making holy paladin a support spec for ret and prot a support for ret.
23
u/azyzbs 20h ago
Ret prioritization isn't the issue with paladin changes.
Shockadin prioritization is. Every talent that might make shockadin too good gets nerfed regardless of how it affects other specs. Holy and retribution are the biggest victims in this.
→ More replies (1)14
u/ClassicRegular8729 18h ago
Never forget and never forgive Esfand was the main champion of the leeway and artificial lag shite from 2019
→ More replies (1)
168
u/Danis-dx 20h ago
Hey u/EsfandTV I know devs appreciate your "feedback", but everyone else does not, so please no more suggestions to devs, we beg you.
41
u/Lemonade-Enjoyer 19h ago
But you don’t understand he LOVES paladin and he LOVES seal twisting. He also mentioned this to the devs.
2
u/PsychologicalSir3326 15h ago
I’m OOTL since I never played Paladin in vanilla and only tried one in classic hardcore, but do people dislike seal twisting, and the basic mechanics as a whole?
Paladin is one of my favorite archetypes in RPG, but it felt like ass to play in classic hardcore. Seals were boring and tedious. Is that the common sentiment?
6
u/Lemonade-Enjoyer 13h ago
I don’t know what the ratio of people who like seal twisting vs people who don’t is, but I know Esfand has hyped it so much that it may be a case of the vocal minority. There’s also a weird elitist thing with seal twisting.
The final talent in the ret tree in Forever is basically just seal twisting without the weird timing aspect and Esfand really doesn’t like it. Also, they built the Paladin trees in a way that if you don’t like twisting, you can opt out of that talent and get holy shock for a shockadin build. And guess what… Esfand doesn’t like that. Esfand has been the driving force behind the idea that there is only one way to play Ret and that’s seal twisting. Again, I think it’s a vocal minority thing.
5
u/Watercooler_expert 15h ago
A lot of people found it annoying probably. They also removed totem twisting for shaman which is technically a nerf but a lot of shamans hated it and many would outright refuse to do it.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Alabaster_Potion 13h ago
You can tell they literally added a version of seal twisting just for Esfand, so that he could hype it up and make other paladins fall in line with it.
(Most paladins I talk to refuse to have anything to do with seal twisting)
4
u/duckraul2 13h ago
I don't know if that was for him or not, tbd, but trust me when I say: even the certified seal twisting enjoyers, from TBC and sod both, HATE this talent. It's not twisting, in more than just the removal of the timing aspect. This talent pleases nobody. Twist haters don't like it, twist enjoyers don't like it, they might even hate it more than the former group tbh.
3
u/randomballgo 11h ago
Are you referring to the final talent in ret or something else? Last i watched he hated that ability with a passion as it wasn’t actual seal twisting.
37
u/Bubamoose 17h ago
Bro was ADAMANT that blessings should be 5 minutes again too 💀
→ More replies (1)8
u/aperthiansmurfian 7h ago
Yeah I saw that and it really cemented my opinion on him. His an idiot. Blessings are no more significant a buff than AI or Fort, they should never have been 5mins in their released form.
He can't even read talent descriptions and often goes off on tangents based on his inability to comprehend written notes. And yet people listen to him and he has a direct line of comms with Devs? No wonder paladins are aimless
→ More replies (2)55
u/alfakoi 19h ago
I watched his latest video on paladins (I didn't watch streamer videos before so was curious), the whole gist of his video was essentially well in vanilla paladins couldn't tank and prot and holy trees sucked for tank/heals and were just used as branches for ret to get different dps flavor.
So his argument isn't even let's make these trees do what they're supposed to do it's make it more like classic instead of fixing the specs of the class to be viable.
All blizzard really had to do was copy turtleWoW here and people would be happy. Holy had a unique melee healer build, prot could take, ret could dps. All the classes were viable, even shamans could tank very well.
11
203
u/Weird_Marionberry_71 1d ago
Hilarious that they thought holy shock doing 450 crit on a 10 second cooldown deserved a 50% nerf, istg they don’t play their own game
171
u/Wind_Best_1440 1d ago
Meanwhile mages throwing out instant ice lance crits for 700-800 damage.
27
u/Potential-Diamond-94 1d ago
Yea fairly regularly also. Not some hail mary in order to do damage, like needing an overload cast into an overload cast 10%*10% > 1% occurrence. Hardcasted too, to then accomplish less than they do with instants.
Seems not much of an alternative left but to roll the pure dps classes.
19
u/Pure-Fuel-9884 23h ago
It was critting around 400-450 before nerf with 100 spellpower and now critting around 300-350, dont know where did you pull 800 from.
25
→ More replies (5)5
→ More replies (3)12
u/gamer-death 1d ago
it was a bug, the talent infusion of Light was doing the effect of the SoD rune
7
103
u/Icy-Fix-1518 1d ago
There have been tons of feedback, not only have they not implemented anything meaningful but the few things they did are complete monkey pawn versions of the feedback.
Want ap to be more desirable in face of sp? Well we are going to nerf sp scalling so both are equally bad.
Want holy to have better healing talents instead of dps? Now somehow holy with its capstone is looking to be the better dps paladin spec.
42
u/Randvek 1d ago
Yeah I'm not sure where Paladin healing is supposed to be now. We have 2 dps trees and a tank tree.
25
u/censuur12 23h ago
Actually there is no tank tree either. Ret tree is significantly better than prot for tanking, and that was before they nerfed prot mana generation by a 1/3rd. The talents just don't really work conceptually and are all-around worse versions than warrior baseline abilities. It's madness. Everything that might look good, warrior now gets better. Templar's bullwark? Well warriors get a straight up 60% damage reduction that lasts longer with a similar cooldown, and they also have last stand on TOP of that! Paladin gets 9% bonus melee weapon damage (with a spellpower weapon lmao) while warrior gets 10% to ALL damage. Paladin has to spec deep into prot to get a significantly worse version than warrior's shield block. Reckoning is stuck being a chance of a chance at getting an extra melee attack, which won't scale well due to a lack of str gear and wielding a 1h spellpower weapon.
But hey, let's nerf consecrate again! And let's also "fix" judgement because it was doing similar damage to Revenge (on twice the cooldown) and that makes paladins too close to warriors which were already still miles ahead (and didn't see ANY nerfs or rebalancing)
What the fuck are we doing here Blizzard?
23
22
u/7figureipo 1d ago
That tank tree doesn’t even bring paladins to parity with warriors (another hybrid class) for mitigation and adds approximately zero threat generation. It’s not a tree any paladin tank will go deep in, just like vanilla
4
u/Aggressive-Juice4162 1d ago
the mage feedback seems to of been listened to greatly. just about every major topic from the mage discord feedback channel was implemented in todays update. hopefully paladins get their time next
3
13
u/gdadealmeida 18h ago
The idea of nerfing Pala aoe tanking and keeping prot aoe toolkit is a brilliant take from the devs.
11
u/Sweet_Disharmony_792 15h ago
they just dont give a shit about hpal lol
solidified my decision to go priest over hpal after having played hpal all of tbc anni
lights vigil is so damn costly and plain bad in its current state, and thats the only new toy they gave to the two button spam class
→ More replies (3)3
66
u/LePagon 1d ago
Our talents feels so trash, seeing champion of the light getting even more nerfed, conc nerfed... I feel bad for savix. At least they fixed reck, reck bombing rogues will be fun
20
u/Zero3020 1d ago
Going from 100% SP as Int to 30% 😭
Well but now Enh Shamans cannot complain since both specs get the same shitty spell power!
1
u/azyzbs 23h ago
Shamans were complaining? These guys literally get 100% of their int as AP on top of 30% as SP.
Ret only get 30% of their int as SP with no into to AP conversion
→ More replies (3)5
u/Recktion 22h ago
Shaman only have to use 2 talent points and they get +healing as well... I wish ours was as good as theirs.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)13
u/FormalSeparate6153 1d ago
Bro should follow his heart and go rogue. Give up on the ret dream it's not worth the heartbreak.
69
u/Security_Ostrich 1d ago
They are over correcting away from sod into worse vanilla.
→ More replies (1)2
u/luffish1 21h ago
There is no way you just compared this to vanilla. Paladin in vanilla wasn't even a class.
19
u/Glanea 18h ago
Holy was better in vanilla. 100% on illuminate instead of 50%, and downranking wasn't nerfed so we could spam low ranks of Flash of Light basically forever.
Losing that would be fine if it was actually replaced with something but... it isn't. Instead we have an extremely mana intensive clunky group heal option that must be pre-casted and is woefully inferior to Wild Growth or Prayer of Mending. Which would be ok if we had massive single target heals except....we don't. Shaman, Priest and Druid all single heal far better than we do. Chain-heal onto Riptide, rolling hots and Penance all leave Holy light or Flash of Light spam for dead.
→ More replies (1)14
u/GHR-5H_Grasshopper 21h ago edited 20h ago
Holy might be worse than vanilla. The other healers have so much better mana regen and output that it's putting Holy into a worse position. In some ways Prot is also worse than Vanilla, same SP coefficient on a lot of abilities but now it's capped at 4 but isn't truly worse because it still has the taunt and the blocking.
35
u/tastes_a_bit_funny 1d ago
I think the paladin stuff is all a ruse to reduce the paladin population. They’ll get buffed eventually.
8
u/idungiveboutnothing 19h ago
Holy needs a straight up rework for healing, just buffs won't even help them at this point since it's just a DPS spec now lol
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (1)4
u/Strong_Mode 16h ago
you sweet summer child. paladin nerfs is just a tradition for blizzard
→ More replies (1)2
u/Mondasin 15h ago
hey now, we're good for 1/3 of a retail xpac launch patch, and then the traditional nerfs hit.
8
16
u/Curious_Cucumber_803 1d ago
I was not sure roling a paly 😅 now I will play druid instead
6
u/Pie_Dealer_co 1d ago
Man I was planning to play paladin
Here we go back to lock it seems
7
3
u/DragonfruitMediocre 1d ago
Back to lock? Might as well just play mage. Soul shards got no QoL and is a pain to play around and mages got all the buffs in the world
→ More replies (5)2
u/azyzbs 22h ago
Soul sharding is not that bad and we got new bag space specifically for reagents. Meanwhile warlock got one of the best talent trees of forever.
→ More replies (1)
17
u/Harkania 13h ago
Not a big fan of the prot pala mana nerf. It is not like prot pala is _that_ strong. Shield warrior just laughs at pala when tanking. Pala threat is much weaker than druid and warrior. Basically have to hold back on judgment and hope you never pull more than 4 mobs or you will have to rely on someone off tanking. With the mana nerf you'll sit there entirely useless if the fight lasts more than a minute.
→ More replies (5)
5
u/Lytebite 15h ago
Should add another bullet point - “play mage instead, our new favorite class!”
→ More replies (1)3
13
u/RoastBeefSandwitch 1d ago
It's time we all swap to the true tanks of forever: demo warlocks and enhance shamans.
6
u/jntjr2005 20h ago
If Prot and Ret Pally had 1 more button (attacks) I would bare through and main it but as is its way too slow and boring.
→ More replies (1)
16
u/Thracian777 1d ago
Champion of light must’ve been OP at level 60.. it’s now down to %30
→ More replies (1)
22
u/Danielsan415 1d ago
The mana nerf for blocking from 6% to 4% feels so out of touch - you are kinda forced to go Ret talents just for the mana cost reduction of spells
16
u/Bxdwfl 20h ago
they gotta rework prot. having your taunt be bound to judgement is awkward af. the mana issues are horrendous now (they were bad before, but now they're really bad). your identity as an aoe tank is pretty much dead. the block gimmick is inconsistent because of how everything seems to have charges.
→ More replies (2)14
u/Norwind0 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah like this is what annoys me especially.
On one hand they are saying "We want the game to be intuitive to play for new players".
So... that means a new player who wants to be a shield-wielding paladin would intuitively choose protection as their spec...ONLY TO GET COMPLETELY OOM FUCKED up until like lvl 25, while the dude who specced ret tanks every dungeon up to 30 with absolutely no issues, because early ret talents just mathematically give you more to spend.
They really, really have no idea what they are doing. Its both tragic and funny. I dont even think AI is behind this because fucking MS co-pilot could balance this better.
→ More replies (1)4
u/censuur12 22h ago
If you do the math, even at 6% prot mana efficiency was barely better than just going ret for the cost reduction talents and tanking in ret. At 4% it's no longer better, which means the ONE thing prot was marginally better at (and not by a lot, the actual amount was largely insignificant) is now not even a thing anymore.
Why would you ever spec prot, even as a tank? It makes no sense to.
5
u/antariusz 22h ago
Why would you even play paladin is the real question? What do they do that another class doesn’t do better, significantly so.
3
u/EggPsychological4844 21h ago
Well you would spec Prot for Holy Shield in a raid setting. Prior to level 60 raids there has never been a reason to spec more than 13 points in Prot. At least Era had BoSanc if you wanted to push 21 points late game.
14
5
u/Alejinh 22h ago
Has any real prot pals tried tanking after the update? Is it better or worse? I’m especially interested in the aoe threat side of it. Thanks!
6
u/Ok-Comedian-6852 21h ago
It's worse on a 2+ target situation and equal or slightly better in 1 target situation. We were already kinda struggling with threat.
2
u/Harkania 13h ago
Just horrible now. Mana issues if fight isn't over real fast. The mana nerf makes 0 sense. No mana no threat
11
u/Prayedtt 18h ago
Forcing everyone play shockadin and them nerf shockadin and paladin will continue to be the meme spec for dps.
Blizzard never forced warriors or druids to full tank but paladins they really do
→ More replies (5)2
28
u/AWildMurlocAppears 1d ago
Blizzard developers must be snorting crack cocaine while writing out these patch notes.
I can't think of any other explanation as to why a blindfolded monkey on a unicycle could balance the game better.
→ More replies (2)26
u/AceTrainer_sSkwigelf 1d ago
If you watch the second episode of their podcast that goes over all classes, it's quite apparent they follow some static, hard percentage based ruleset to determine balancing between classes. They touch base on dps budgets, healing budgets, and other arbitrary terms but they all seem to me just static design rules they apply in isolation rather than thinking systemically. That episode also got some messaging wrong.
There's a segment where they're discussing the core strengths of each class, and while they acknowledge warriors to be hybrids, they also say warriors will also be the best cleave damage doers. Alright, that's established. So what's a druid's and a paladin's one great thing they're exceptional at, like no other class?
I don't think their system of various budgets works as it should. On paper, theoretically, it sounds great but its implementation is too mechanical I think. It's the whole reason why druids and paladins still feel like the classes where they don't have any vision of defining what the best version looks like.
4
u/Pekkis2 22h ago
I would add shaman to that list. They face the same issue as druid where their spell base damage is in the dumps, but they also lost coefficients so their scaling is worse too. Add to that their best healing spell (r1 CH) gutted with only some compensatory buffs.
Druid has one significant strength though, aoe hots. No one does consistent aoe healing as good as rdruid.
4
u/AceTrainer_sSkwigelf 20h ago
Never played shaman before but yeah, seeing all the feedback, they should be up there. So basically, we have successfully retained the vanilla trifecta of the most poorly designed classes going into Forever, in true Classic fashion. Bravo!
I acknowledge druids get aoe hots but then we're saying the best trait of a druid is healing. Is druid, then, primarily a healing class? And once again, Resto is still shaping up to be better than balance and feral, i.e. most viable spec of the bunch like in true Classic fashion.
Forever seems to just improve some things here and there but whatever design rules they have just seen to repeat the same connotations and reputations that classes and specs carried in Classic. Gg to blizz I guess...? #no_changes successfully achieved.
→ More replies (2)
25
13
3
u/Aggressive-Juice4162 1d ago
im genuinely curious if aggrend has any say in class balancing at this point. i think hes best when hes making quests and stuff anyway
4
u/Orson2080 21h ago
I’m just gutted that Champion of the Light keeps getting nerfed. I didn’t even want it for damage; I wanted it for offheals. I wish it’d increase healing again, or otherwise give us Art of War for instant Flash of Light :’)
12
u/Nostwins 1d ago
Paladins seeing these patch notes. This sucks.
Me a Rogue seeing the reckoning change and remember getting drive by LITERAL one shotted by paladins while fighting someone else.
→ More replies (3)
24
u/PureNinja 1d ago
Hey least you guys get mentioned. Rogues over here with 111 words about them in a month.
55
u/Curmudge_Unit 1d ago
You do not want the blizzard words.
8
15
u/PureNinja 1d ago
Rogues are replacing paladins as the auto attack class. We are stealing your identity.
9
u/dtgunslinger99 1d ago
back in bc rogues were the auto attack class. if you had the tier and glaives haste bonuses anyway
2
→ More replies (1)3
u/VeilynAstraea 1d ago
lmao as someone whos committed himself to playing shaman, you couldn't be more fucking right lol
23
u/Afraid-Adeptness-926 1d ago
Better than getting nerfed multiple patches in a row due to level 30 twinked dungeon feedback.
6
u/The-Only-Razor 1d ago
Reminds me of the D4 beta. It took some classes like a year to recover from the nerfs Blizzard hit them with based on the level 25 meta.
It has me a bit concerned that there isn't really a whole lot of testing taking place for level 60 content. I'd have infinitely more confidence if they came out and said they're not making these massive last minute changes because internal testing shows everything comes out fine at 60.
→ More replies (1)5
u/AWildMurlocAppears 1d ago
There has been zero balance testing for anything ever in WoW. The developers can't even play their own classes they work on.
→ More replies (1)9
u/PureNinja 1d ago
You see you got your nerfs during the beta. Rogues started the beta with their talent nerfs in place. We are not the same.
5
u/Afraid-Adeptness-926 1d ago
Nowhere to go but up.
2
u/mycatbeck 1d ago
Not so sure because people were losing their minds over rogues being top solo dps per devs
→ More replies (2)5
u/omegaonion 23h ago
if paladins got the rogue silent treatment they would be better off for it lol. Every patch is a nerf.
6
u/Vivid_Succotash_6298 1d ago
I am still gonna play paladin, but its feeling like its gonna be kinda mid?
Not helped by the fact that my guild is going horde, so my only option is Undead which just got slapped with a touch of the grave nerf.
→ More replies (2)
5
u/WisdomDuck4 19h ago
I was on the fence about paladin and druid tank.
Bear is the clear and obvious choice now.
→ More replies (3)
6
u/Standard-Struggle723 17h ago
Did anyone test Reckoning only to realize in 5 seconds that it's fucking broken? As in hilariously 5 swinging on every proc.
like these devs just straight up are not testing anything before making changes.
14
u/krats87 18h ago
Im so fuckin exhausted seeing everyone waxing on about how their class/spec is unviable, unplayable, TERRIBLE! despite knowing NOTHING about how things will play out endgame.
→ More replies (7)
9
u/elocnoremac 1d ago
Can someone give me the TLDR? I am a Paladin main and haven’t played the beta in a few weeks
16
u/antariusz 22h ago
5 weeks in a row of nerfs. You now do roughly 50% of the threat you used to do when you last played.
52
u/Zorpheus 1d ago
Consecrate SP coefficience got halfed, it was already hot dog ass compared to era with its 4 target cap. Now its AoE tank class fantasy is completely gone and has fully embraced itself in being a clunky yellow warrior. SP conversion from Champion of light launched at 100% of int converted to spell power, to now being 30%. This means if you somehow get an item with 100 int on it it'll give you the equivelant SP stats of an SFK piece of gear with raw SP on it.
Capstone talent for Ret just unlocks a gimmicky DPS rotation of spam alternating seals without having the mana regen to ever support it (ontop of the playstyle being obnoxious as hell). Alternative is to dip deep into holy for Holy shock as an offensive spell to make the Ret feel somewhat okay to play, at the cost of still not feeling anything like Ret does in any version of the game.
→ More replies (8)27
u/elocnoremac 1d ago
That sucks. SoD was so fun for me. Idk how they keep fucking it up
→ More replies (4)6
19
7
u/CrustedTesticle 20h ago
Dogshit Twist of Light still exists, and they're forcing Shockadin down our throats (and to be better then a full Ret tree build).
→ More replies (4)5
→ More replies (4)5
u/saxon_hs 1d ago
You just went from being 3 mandatory paladins in every 20 man raid down to 2 which is completely warranted and fair, when there’s 9 classes in the game no class should be mandatory to bring 3.
4
7
u/Yonahuyetsgah 1d ago
Yeah, that's one more warrior dps that we can bring from 10 to 11 + 2 warrior tanks of course.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (1)1
u/HongLong211 1d ago
u went from bringing 2 healer pallies/maybe a tank pallie and a ret to just bringing 2 healer pallies lmao, not warranted or fair
→ More replies (3)14
u/saxon_hs 1d ago
Dunno what you’re smoking, healer pally was the worst of the 4 yesterday and is still the worst today.
Best will be 1 Prot paladin IF they can tank the content without the defensive toolkit thar a warrior has.
Then 2nd is a ret/shockadin. 3rd was also another rer/shockadin.
Hpal is bad.
9
u/Dreyven 1d ago
Why'd you ever bring a prot paladin. Worst defences and with all those nerfs you'll do little damage and can do nothing you couldn't slot in a warrior or druid for
→ More replies (4)2
u/HongLong211 1d ago
hpal can be horrible, its still a in demand role vs the oversaturated dps role
2
u/saxon_hs 1d ago
Hpal is competing for healing spots with priest and rdruid who are so kitted out they can probably 2 heal all the 20 man content. And then rsham is there too doing totems as a 3rd healer. As long as ret+shockadin+prot are viable (they are) then hpal won’t be where you get the blessings.
2
u/HongLong211 1d ago
hpal competing with shadows lmao, pple will more likely take w/e healer they get but theyre more picky with dps
2
u/Uncreativity10 1d ago
Depends on the guild. My guild isn’t a dad guild, so nope, I gotta roll rDruid if I wanna heal. So lame
→ More replies (5)
7
u/censuur12 23h ago
It's incredibly, incredibly funny to me that I did the math on mana regeneration talents between prot and retribution and found that protection spec is barely better than protection (when not using exorcism, ret was already more mana efficient when casting exorcism and hammer of wrath) so there was no real point in speccing into protection at all even as a tank (weak mitigation talents, mana regeneration is barely more effective than ret and way worse damage/threat talents compared to ret) and now Blizzard decided to nerf protection mana generation...
Well thanks for settling the argument for me Blizz, I imagine there will still be some absolute derps that think speccing protection to tank is worthwhile but at least now Blizzard has made it easier for even the dumbest idiot to see that it's not.
8
u/azyzbs 22h ago
Watch these buffons nerf the ret mana talents instead of buffing the prot ones.
13
u/censuur12 22h ago
The mana stuff is part of the general issue though, the entire philosophy behind it is bad.
Compare to other tanks where extra rage and cost reductions will directly translate to more threat per second as you spam more abilities. Paladin can never do that, mana regeneration will only allow you to keep going steady as you are. You don't scale with more resources and it's only an issue if you would otherwise run out. Issue there is that if there is a risk of running out of resources it means the class is unplayable as a tank. Currently the mana regeneration talents don't serve as a boost to your power at all, the classes are balanced around a paladin casting all their spells all the time and they still don't keep up with warriors who threaten to scale beyond what they're currently doing.
So we're wasting talents to match a baseline that warriors and druids already have. Improved seal of fury is quite bad for mana regeneration. It's 1 mana per level every time your shield breaks, which isn't enough and doesn't work when you're not already being attacked (and more dodge/parry chance will reduce it further)
You need 8 talents and holy shield at the bottom of the tree to get a version of shield block that is objectively much worse; 50% block total while redoubt and holy shield are both active, with redoubt being very unreliable against bosses. Warriors get a reliable 75% block chance increase for 0 talents. Their talents instead generate extra resources that increase their threat (comparable to holy shield damage, just needs a mere 5 talents and also gives them a BASELINE 5% chance to block increase, this is so much better!)
It's actually just incredible how bad paladin protection tree is compared to warriors.
→ More replies (3)2
2
11
u/Cella91 1d ago
Literally all they had to do was take Wotlk Ret design and make some adjustments to make sure it isn't overtuned. I don't understand what they're doing.
6
2
u/dragdritt 18h ago
Please god no, wotlk ret has to be the most uninspired and boring ret ever created (after Vanilla's obviously).
2
u/Storage-Express 12h ago
off topic but wotlk/SoD enhancement shaman or cata ele was also way better than whatever they did in forever. same for affliction lock in wrath and probably a bunch of other classes.
it just seems like that wasn't 'classic enough' for the devs and they feel the need to keep around annoying af totem management, mana issues, simpler rotations and so on.
2
2
u/azyzbs 23h ago
Please don't. Wotlk ret is just arms warrior.
Let us keep our class identity. If people want to play arms warrior, they should go play it instead of trying to turn ret into it.
7
u/BookerLegit 22h ago
Nah, Arms Warriors have rage to manage. Wrath Ret was just pressing buttons.
But at least one of those buttons felt good to press, I guess.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (10)5
3
4
u/MrLeeHunterDx 18h ago
They gonna mess this whole thing up so bad and it will just be another day at blizzard HQ
2
u/drmlol 1d ago
I am new here, can someone explain me the meme?
18
u/val_lae 1d ago
The format is from an infamous interview in warlords of draenor where demonology warlock was so overtuned for so long that people, even other class mains, just didn't want to play anything else.
In response to this, they did a sweeping and aggressive numerical nerf to the spec while they cooked up the rework, and when confronted about it, the dev was paraphrasing the thought process behind the nerf and said 'basically, we'd rather you didn't play demonology right now while we work on fixing it'
That's the lore.
12
u/Emberstone73 1d ago
I played Demo back then! He didn't say "while we work on fixing it", Ion just said they'd rather we didn't play it at all. Full stop.
That's when I unsubbed from WoW for good. I played Demo because I enjoyed what Xelnath did to the spec in Mists, not for power (though it did help).
2
u/Aggressive-Juice4162 1d ago
Ion is still the lead designer for WoW btw. A lot of retail's class design issues lay directly at his feet
3
2
u/Emberstone73 1d ago
Oh I am quite aware. I'm playing EverQuest Legends now and having way more fun with that than I ever had with post-WoD retail.
2
u/Cybannus 1d ago
Xelnath did to the spec in Mists
Firing that guy was one of the biggest mistakes Blizzard ever made.
2
u/Creampie_Senpai_69 23h ago
Firing him and then redistributing all the cool stuff he gave Warlocks to other classes was the biggest fuck you they gave him. Remeber when Destro Warlocks started to burn when accumulating more embers? Becasue I member.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)3
u/References_Paramore 1d ago
They also took a lot of demonology’s kit for the upcoming Demon Hunter class in the following expansion which is probably more the reason why they didn’t want people to play Demo.
Similarly they nerfed survival into the ground because they changed it to a melee spec in Legion
13
u/SeriousLee91 1d ago edited 23h ago
Nerfs to an already really bad class copared to others.
Holy is numberwise the worst healer in the game with the worst heal to mana ratio. And they didn't change anything in the holy tree except nerfing dmg in the holy tree...
6
u/Uzeless 1d ago
Tbh the disappointing part isn’t even the bad numbers it’s the boring design and how half the tree is dedicated to shockadin.
Like I’m sure shockadin is fun to play around with but right now a holy paladin raid talent tree has 20 dead talents that does nothing for healing
5
u/Mattamzz 23h ago
What's crazy to me is that we already had a boring design. Raid healing was spamming fol and if you were good; bop'ing casters about to pull agro, blessing of freedom, cleanse, and keeping judgement of wisdom/light up.
So they gave us an aoe heal and fucked with illumination?!?!? Why not make Holy light and Holy shock worth a shit to throw into our rotation.
2
u/Recktion 22h ago
You mean a talent to speed up a heal you dont want to use by critting with another spell you really never want to use isn't what you want?
It's honestly hard to look at the holy tree and have faith in the development team at the same time.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (2)2
u/Mondasin 15h ago
the numbers arent even that bad its just hpal isn't going to out perform other classes in their main style, while other classes got even more ways to use their kit.
Binding heal from priests would be good for paladin, scaling for seal of light/wisdom would be good, not standing around with our dicks in our hands while shaman and priests can also give armor from healing could help.
4
u/SeriousLee91 1d ago
Nerfs to an already really bad class copared to others.
Holy is numberwise the worst healer in the game with the worst hrla to mana ratio. And they didn't change anything in the holy tree except nerfing dmg in the holy tree...
2
566
u/Xertdk 1d ago