So confused about the “gray helms,” that just show up out of nowhere. At first k thought these are just the gray swords with a new name. Toc and the gang. Quick Ben says he recognizes them and one of them acknowledges him which further confirmed it for me. But then they said they’ve been here preparing this ritual for years which is weird because the gray swords couldn’t have been on this continent for years. So who are these guys and what’s their deal? How does Quick Ben know them? Or is it just that he recognizes them as being a carbon copy of the gray swords?

Hi everyone! On my first read-through here. Read GotM-HoC in high school/early college (10-12 years ago) and picked up MT several months ago. Finished BH yesterday after about three months and realized I had far too many "Wait, what happened the last time I saw this character?" moments. I decided that going into RG I was going to start taking notes and thought one way I might do it would be to tag pages with small sticky tags labeled with the character whose POV that scene was from, but I feel that might get chaotic kind of quickly. Does anyone have any suggestions for note-taking to keep up with the complex plots?

Also was curious about a potential RAFO in Bonehunters. I don't know if I read it too slowly but was hoping for a little more exposition about the state of the moon and the falling jade/meteors closer to the end of Bonehunters. Peeking ahead at RG's Dramatis Personae, it looked like Cutter, Scillara, Mappo, and companions aren't even in book 7. I'm not sure if I missed a cue earlier on in the book (or series) in Heboric's plot-line that would put some context into what happened with these enormous suns raining down on Otataral Island and the seeming dissolution of the Moon--I did connect it with Ardata's healing of Mappo but wasn't sure how this weighed in overall since it had been several hundred pages before people noticed something was off about the moon. I wouldn't consider it a spoiler to find out a surprise appearance from Cutter et al. happens in RG but with the length of time it took me to read the book, I thought I would check to see if I completely missed an important detail or not!

Thanks for any help in either question!

Some time ago, there was a post asking if there were Hindu influences in Malazan. One of the comments talked about a sequence in "The Bonehunters" and (I think) it's about the burning of Y'Ghatan. There were no answers/follow up to that commment so it kind of stayed in my mind. I started reading Mahabharat (translated by Bibek Debroy, one of the best if not the best translation of the epic) some days ago, and today and it mentioned the burning of the lac house, where Duryodhana and his allies attempted to assassinate the Pandavas and their mother, Kunti (Lakshagriha). So this is (might be) one of the Hindu influences that Steven Erikson must have taken from Mahabharat.

Well, just speculation, I suppose. But it's interesting and quite cool!

I'm about to start the Crippled God and wanted to share my series experience and book rankings.

Letherii has been by far my favorite setting and I feel in general the books improve as the series goes. The exploration of empire and colonialism on Letherii has been my favorite theme of the series, and Dust of Dreams has been my favorite book so far. I found the Perish/Bolkando/Barghast storylines so engaging that I re-read those sections after finishing 3/4 of the book. Considering it's often a lower-ranked book here, I'm curious if others found things to like about it.

I took a years-long break after Bonehunters, and had ambitions to re-read Deadhouse Gates through Bonehunters before the finale but ultimately I don't think that's going to happen. I've been listening to the Esslemont books as I go as well, skipping Night of Knives and going in roughly publication order.

My rankings:

1. Dust of Dreams
2. Reapers Gale
3. Midnight Tides
4. Bonehunters
5. Deadhouse Gates (second read)
6. Return of the Crimson Guard
7. House of Chains
8. Memories of Ice
9. Orb Sceptre Throne
10. Deadhouse Gates (first read)
11. Stonewielder
12. Toll the Hounds
13. Gardens of the moon
14. (Night of Knives not pictured)

Guys i can’t stop thinking about this, i felt it while re reading stormlight archive, i don’t specifically remember what it was in those books but I had this taste in my mouth he was renting some of the Erikson ideas, especially in the later ones.

In his latest book the city where the narration develops is whole built around a fallen titan which is apparently dead (or sleeping), the blood of the titan creates rivers that move all through this town, and apparently this blood can be used as a portal or can even give Magic power… i mean am I crazy or this sound waaaay too familiar???

Is there any Brandon Sanderson and Steven Erikson here that felt the same?

Love you all

Overall

Oh my god where do I even begin... What a glorious finale... Holy shit... Multiple sprawling final sequences over 150 pages... This was a very intense read... I love it, just brutal, unforgiving, but so funny and so so satisfying. I cried like 4-5 different times at the end of this book... So many times I would stop and just think to myself "this is just phenomenally well written.". There is too much content in these books, I need to read them a few more times.

Honestly this hit harder than the Bonehunters (here's my previous review https://www.reddit.com/r/Malazan/comments/1vwh04u/new_readers_thoughs_on_the_bonehunters/)

The Marines

Finally we see the marines in full ACTION. It was full Vietnam war over there, swamps, explosives, granados, quarrels, the sheer brutality of it. 10/10 vibes, peak military fantasy. Also Beak.. My hears b(r)eaks for Beak. He had barely any page time, but such a beautiful swan song... So the Marines war criminals or liberators? Who knows, but I love em all!

The Awl

Redmask's journey was so well written, starting off as the biggest badass, whipping the tribes into a fighting force, only to fail and be suddenly dismembered out of nowhere. Such a cool mystery. But was it him under the mask? Was he a stolen lethery baby? Did a letheri take his mask in the battle (an imposter)? Who know, it was awesome.

Toc's presence there felt find of random though, I was more confused when he died then invested. I also quite enjoyed the Letheri side of this. Quality military stuff!

The Quest for the Finnest

I really liked this ragtag group. It has one the funniest scenes - the Tiste Edur monastery with it's squabbling monks with dissonant chanting. Also the resentment seething between then, while they carried themselves forth. So much tension in those pages, I really enjoyed their journey.

However, it didn't make too much sense from a logical perspective why they stayed together. Why didn't Silchas and Clip just dump the rest, take Kettle and do their thing? Maybe they wanted them as fodder in case thing went wrong? Also Kettle deserved more page time before her death! That was shocking!

Quick Ben

Quick shout out to my favourite character, blasting out elder dragon beings like it's nothing. The High mage with the burnout, gotta love him.

Karsa

My boy, non-alleged rapist, war criminal, reforming himself. Resuing the sword, a powerful moment. His clever scheme to kill Rhulad and end his missery. Phonomenal final scenes. Very cleverly written.

The Bros

So many good bro duets here! Fiddler and Hedge got reunited!!! Quick Ben and Hedge are the second best arguing married couple, Trull and Onrack being as emotional as ever. The whole sequence when Onrack got his flesh back, hunting and being happy again. I loved reading that so so much! They deserved a proper goodbye! But maybe Rafo, things are in motion.

Trull

Him dying caught me completely unprepared... I did the whole 5 stages of grief. And what was most masterful is that at first you don't believe it, because it happens so suddenly. But then in the final part of the prologue when Seren is burying the sword. That's where it got me... Also a mason shows up? I remember a few masons!!! (no spoilers pls)

The Letheri

This is the part of the book that I did not connected to. The Patrotists and the Rotary club were interesting in princple, but they did not move the plot much. They added flavour, but were very one-dimensional. Yes, I get it, these are definitely bad guys, hateable, time to enjoy them dying (which granted I did).

Also it pains me so much so say this, because I loved Tehol and Bugg so so much in Midnight Tides, but the jokes were a little played out here. I love seeing them on page, so many good lines and funny jokes. But there are only so many times I can laugh at them eating something unedible. Also the whole plotline with Janath being a torture victim, to end up on Tehol's roof, who kind of hits on her after that, her being his previous teacher, to then her being tortured again, then becoming queen. That just felts weird. Also Tehol's whole emperor arc felt cringy. I'm sorry! I get why it happens, but it just did not land for me.

So Many Subversions. Sooo many.

Silchas getting completely demolished by the bridgeburners, Redmark getting shredded to bits, The big invasion of the Malazans is of a ruined city, not able to fight back much. The best thing about it, is that now my brain is trained that nothing is certain, every scene can be tense for any character. Love it! It's almost satire, but actually worked for me. I'm so impressed!

Random Digressions

I simply love those. The scene where Nimander tears the knife from his sister is one my favourite in this book. The whole lore of the Shake, seeing the little stories of the people on the wrong side of the war get killed. Beautiful. So much flavour.

Way too Horny

This book was way too horny at places, that did not always work for me. The whole thing about everyone staring at Gilani's ass was too much. Actually, on second though, I maybe would do the same, who am I too judge. But Invictad dying with his intestines looking like a penis? Feather Which using Bryss's finger like a tampon (okay that was actually freaking hillarious). Sometimes these land, but sometimes not. Are some of these ironic? Meta ironic? Does it even matter?

I just hate that there's more rapes in the books then genunine sex scenes. You could have give us Seren and Trull, Erickson! Sex is not only violent!

The Postmodernism

I've heard many times that this fantasy series has some postmodern writing elements. It's only that I start seeing them. The loony toones humor, the meta commentary on the "hero's journey", and heroes then failing. I'm sure if I'm into this yet, especially if it get more overt and meta, I have to see how it plays out and develops as a bigger theme across the following books. I am sceptical so far.

P.S Why doesn't anyone just kill the crippled god? Mael? Karsa? He's just sitting there helpless???

INTRODUCTION

We often see this topic come up on the subreddit, and I had recently prepared a shorter version of the below as an appendix for my summary for Night of Knives. However, I felt it also could be valuable as its own post, and would be helpful to link in the community resources. I am not writing this as a prescription for any particular read order (there are already suggestions, including one of my own, in the community resources), but rather as a list of considerations to help someone make that decision for themselves. If anyone sees anything that I may have missed, please feel free to comment and I may update this post to reflect that as well, although remember to keep this Spoiler Free.

It is often debated in which order to mix these two “main” series of Malazan (or "main" and "side," I am not going to tackle that particular debate). These two series are the Malazan Book of the Fallen (MBOTF) by Steven Erikson and the Novels of the Malazan Empire (NOTME) by Ian C Esslemont. However, the answer to this is nuanced and requires some consideration of the reader's situation, aptitude, and desires. Both of these series are suggested to be read before any of the other prequel or sequel series (The Kharkanas Trilogy, The Witness Series, and Path to Ascendancy); The Tales of Bauchelain and Korbal Broach can be read anytime after Memories of Ice, and The Goats of Glory anytime after Toll the Hounds.

I wish this didn't have to be stated, but the Novels of the Malazan Empire are not standalone books. Many people mistake this, likely because they are named "Novels of" or because so many people call them "side stories", but they are a linked series, and should be read in their own order, as book 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 out of 6.

GENERAL CONSIDERATIONS

Ultimately, there are two questions to be answered:

1. Do you mix the two series or read them separately?
2. If mixing, in which order do you place the NOTME between the MBOTF? (I assume you follow publication order of the MBOTF and intend to read that series through)

The main considerations that we have found come up in these debates are:

Are you a new reader, or re-reading?

New readers should maybe consider just staying with either the MBOTF to start, or if mixing then limit themselves to publication order, as:
(a) this will help to avoid any accidental spoilers, and
(b) this is what the authors suggest, at least as a quick answer if not nuanced – they did write knowing what each other had already published was “fair game” to reference and call back to.

Note that despite this “writing meta,” I do not believe that the authors intentionally delayed Esslemont’s entries until after Erikson was a certain way through, they just adapted once Esslemont started to be published.

Malazan also is a series that is written to be re-read, so a second or third read may be a better time for many people to try mixing the two series in different ways.

How closely will you follow lore or hints which may spoil things?

For example, while Orb Sceptre Throne and Blood and Bone technically contain spoilers for Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God, they aren’t extremely explicit, and if you don’t know what to look for you likely won’t notice them on your first read.

The cracks in the series timeline also show a lot more when reading out of publication order.

What is your capacity for burnout?

Reading 10 big novels is already a massive undertaking. Adding 6 more will just make this harder for some people to follow through.

On the other hand, other people may prefer to mix, as Esslemont's novels do tend to be lighter and easier to get through, and thus can provide a break from Erikson's prose while still continuing in the same world.

Do you feel a need to read everything together?

It is important to note that the series aren’t required to be read together. The two stories diverge quite a bit, with Erikson handling a very different story thread than Esslemont. Besides one rather big spoiler for Return of the Crimson Guard (spoiled in Dust of Dreams - and even then without context it's hard to tell what is correct and what is not), you won’t really know what you are missing if you just read the MBOTF.

The reverse cannot really be said of the NOTME, as they do rely on the reader having read at least some of the MBOTF. However, Night of Knives could be considered an alternative entry point to the series, giving more explicit exposition than Gardens of the Moon, and containing only minor spoilers for the first few novels in the MBOTF.

While this may make one think that both are necessary to read to connect everything, most of the connections are more nods and cameos than required lore.

Does Esslemont feel like fan fiction to you?

To clarify, Esslemont is NOT fan fiction. However, some people do say he reads as such, once they are so used to Erikson, which can be a deterant. So many readers may dislike Esslemont’s writing style compared to Erikson (or conversely they may prefer it, as he leans way less into the philosophical pondering), and this could be a consideration on if you want to mix or not. Keep in mind that just like Erikson improved a lot after writing Gardens of the Moon and getting published, Esslemont improved a lot after Return of the Crimson Guard and getting published.

As a bit of history, the two authors created Malazan together through tabletop roleplay gaming (GURPS) while out on archeological digs together. Esslemont introduced gaming to Erikson. It also becomes evident through the Novels of the Malazan Empire that Esslemont covers more of the world and magic system than Erikson, although he dives less deep into the areas he does cover. There is also a reason why Esslemont covers more of the Malazan Empire details (including the history of the Empire as covered in his Path to Ascendancy series), while Erikson covers more of ancient history (including what is covered in the Kharkanas Trilogy). Each of the two authors are responsible for developing different parts of the overall worldbuilding.

Other Considerations:

• If going for publication order, keep in mind that it still isn’t really the same experience as reading the novels as they were published, because you aren’t waiting months and years between entries in which to digest the stories (unless you self-impose that, I suppose).
• Mixing the series can interrupt each others’ poetic flow and introduce a stylistic whiplash between the two authors. There are also specific hooks between novels meant to lead into the next which then get interrupted by adding other novels between them. For example, House of Chains' epilogue is a hook that leads directly into Midnight Tides; this would be interrupted if you decided to read Night of Knives between the two. In other cases, you might be waiting 2 or more additional novels before getting back to specific storylines or characters you are interested in (this is more true of interrupting Esslemont's novels with Erikson's in the later half).
• It is important to level-set expectations that not every plotline is wrapped up in the MBOTF. However, most of these hanging threads are handled in the NOTME, with The Witness Series finally closing a few minor ones that were still left over. Just being aware of this, even if you don't read the NOTME, can help readers to enjoy the MBOTF more, as they won't feel frustration at things that they otherwise would consider to be dropped.

CONNECTIONS BETWEEN NOVELS

Rather than giving a specific reading order suggestion I will explain context for placing each of the six NOTME so that you can make up your own mind as to what order might work best for you. There are two things to note here:

• Note that publication order here are given as the original date of publication, usually in the UK/Canada Bantam publications, which often were significantly sooner than the US Tor publications. I will also note with * where The Kharkanas Trilogy novels fall into this, but there is very little argument to be made for mixing them with the NOTME - it is just interesting to note that Erikson had started on that before Esslemont finished his series.
• Note that I placed the chronology as best I could. Yes, there are inconsistencies, but this is the closest approximation I can make that makes the most things fit.

Night of Knives:
Published: Between Midnight Tides & The Bonehunters (written before Gardens of the Moon)
Chronological Placement: Before all events in the Malazan Book of the Fallen
Previous reading required: None, but suggested up to at least Memories of Ice
Referenced in: House of Chains, The Bonehunters, Return of the Crimson Guard
Contains Spoilers for: Gardens of the Moon, Deadhouse Gates, Memories of Ice

Return of the Crimson Guard:
Published: between Reaper’s Gale & Toll the Hounds (written before Night of Knives & Gardens of the Moon)
Chronological Placement: Between The Bonehunters & Reaper’s Gale
Previous reading required: Night of Knives, The Bonehunters
Referenced in: Stonewielder, Toll the Hounds, Dust of Dreams, The Witness Series
Contains Spoilers for: The Bonehunters

Stonewielder:
Published: Between Dust of Dreams & The Crippled God (it is strongly recommended not to split up these two – instead, move Stonewielder to either side of them)
Chronological Placement: After Return of the Crimson Guard, one storyline before Toll the Hounds & Orb Sceptre Throne, other storylines in parallel with Dust of Dreams, The Crippled God, Orb Sceptre Throne, & Blood and Bone
Previous reading required: Return of the Crimson Guard
Referenced in: Toll the Hounds, Dust of Dreams, The Witness Series
Contains Spoilers for: Return of the Crimson Guard

Orb Sceptre Throne:
Published: After The Crippled God, before Forge of Darkness*
Chronological Placement: After Toll the Hounds & one storyline in Stonewielder. In parallel with Dust of Dreams, remaining storylines in Stonewielder, Blood and Bone. Before The Crippled God.
Previous reading required: Toll the Hounds, Stonewielder
Referenced in: The Crippled God, The Witness Series
Contains Spoilers for: Toll the Hounds, Dust of Dreams, & The Crippled God

Blood and Bone:
Published: After The Crippled God & Forge of Darkness *, before Fall of Light *
Chronological Placement: After Return of the Crimson Guard, in parallel with Stonewielder, Orb Sceptre Throne, Dust of Dreams, The Crippled God
Previous reading required: Stonewielder
Referenced in: Assail, The Kharkanas Trilogy
Contains Spoilers for: Stonewielder, The Crippled God

Assail:
Published: After The Crippled God & Forge of Darkness *, before Fall of Light *
Chronological Placement: After The Crippled God & Blood and Bone
Previous reading required: The Crippled God, Blood and Bone
Referenced in: The Witness series
Contains Spoilers for: The Crippled God, Stonewielder, Blood and Bone

(My apologies for awkward formatting on Reddit. I promise this looks better in a word processor where I can use indents and underlines)

REFERENCE - ORDERS SIDE BY SIDE

So you don't have to do the math, here is the publication order & (rough) chronological order of the full 16 novels. I didn't bother including Forge of Darkness, The Tales of Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, or The Goats of Glory here, as those can and maybe should be read separately. However, the above information is to help you make a decision on if you want to re-arrange these at all. A pure chronological order is NOT recommended, it is more given here to help you visualize the story structure.

Publication Order:
Gardens of the Moon: April 1999
Deadhouse Gates: September 2000
Memories of Ice: December 2001
House of Chains: December 2002
Midnight Tides: March 2004
Night of Knives: May 2005
The Bonehunters: May 2006
Reaper's Gale: May 2007
Return of the Crimson Guard: May 2008
Toll the Hounds: June 2008
Dust of Dreams: August 2009
Stonewielder: November 2010
The Crippled God: February 2011
Orb Sceptre Throne: January 2012
Blood and Bone: November 2012
Assail: August 2014

Rough Chronological Order:
Night of Knives
Midnight Tides
House of Chains, Book 1
Gardens of the Moon
Deadhouse Gates, Memories of Ice
House of Chains, Books 2-4
The Bonehunters
Return of the Crimson Guard
Stonewielder (one storyline)
Reaper's Gale
Toll the Hounds
Orb Sceptre Throne, Dust of Dreams
Stonewielder (remaining storylines), Blood and Bone, The Crippled God
Assail

Book 2 chapter 15, a soldier nicks their toes on a blade sticking up into their boot, then explains that punctures are the most feared due to the wounds carrying a fever that seizes the joints and locks the jaw. I enjoyed how the realistic depiction is portrayed in the series when I dont believe Ive heard it mentined in other series Ive read.

The thing that threw me was it was said that the wickan healers were low on magical remedies and thus had 'one treatment. Burning the wound and it had to be thorough'

I'd never heard of that before and my research indicated that doesn't seem scorching was a thing we really tried against tetanus historically.

What is the deal with that? I'm curious what you guys think

In book 6(chapter 20) there is this sentence:

Not a single Nemil ship remained now, and that coastline had been left behind, as the second bell after midnight tolled dully at the sandwatcher's hand – the sound taken up by nearby ships, rippling outward through the imperial fleet.

What does "at the sandwatcher's hand" mean?

PS thats my first post ever and english is not my first language, so maybe it's obvious. I cant even describe how hard it is to read these books sometimes due to my not perfect english, but i love them. So i thought maybe i can get help from u guys here when i dont understand something.

What was it like for you when you met someone who was reading/found out someone you knew was reading the Malazan series for the first time?

I've been preaching for people to read the Malazan series from the MOUNTAIN TOPS for a couple of years now because of how incredible it is. I found out that a "friend" (they grew up with my wife and I play volleyball with them once a week during the summer time) of mine is currently on The Bonehunters. I absolutely LOST MY MIND when I first heard that, and asked him way too many questions. Hopefully I didn't scare him off!

Just wondering what everyone else's reaction was when they found themselves in a similar situation to this.

Just want to say I am currently reading a book called Tom's Crossing, and no joke, chapter 20 is equally non-stop and intense as the infamous chapter in Bonehunters.

I just wanted to share that I started a little over a year ago and I have reached chapter 24 of The Crippled God.

It's been a wild ride, and I look forward to seeing how this pans out.

I marked the post as spoilers all since I'm not sure how much specific info I'll actually use and didn't want to slip up.

To start, I normally try to stay off of subreddits of book series im currently reading, one bad spoiler a couple years back and I learned my lesson. I love going to the subs when im done with the series and reading everyone's thoughts and interpretations. It's one of my favorite things to do, like a little treat after the main course!

I just finished the main series after reading the books on and off for about a year, and let me just say this has easily been one of my favorite literary journies I've ever been on. It challenged me in so many ways as a reader, and the scale and scope and chracters were unlike anything I've read before. Definitely a top 5 series for me personally.

I'm not a blind fan boy when it comes to series I like, in fact, I really enjoy seeing people's criticisms and respect their differing opinions. Everyone has their own informed tastes after all and that's okay, a lot of the time they point out things I didnt even notice and cause me to dig deeper into the series and form actual cohesive thoughts about the series as a whole. And a lot of times I actually agree with them after thinking over it again. But oddly enough, Malazan is NOT one of those series for me.

Let me explain, after finishing the books and looking at the sub I noticed that all of the complaints (even the ones from people who finished and enjoyed the series) I just didn't agree with.

I see a lot about how the first book is the worst and a slog, I thought it was confusing of course and the prose was really odd to my basic fantasy level brain but at the halfway point the writing style clicked and I really enjoyed it. I used the Malazan wiki to refresh myself on certain plot points and that helped a ton on my entry to the series. Another one I see is that DG is seen as odd and bleak and a weak entry in the series.. DG might be my favorite, Coltaine, Duiker, and Felisin are some of the most beautifully tragic characters ive ever experienced. Had no problems with the narrative change in HOC and MT, although I didnt have the best time connecting with the Edur conflict as a whole, just thought it was a tad boring. I see a lot about how the later books become philosophical ramblings and internal monologue dump but by the time they roll around I was so invested in the story and Erikson's own internal world that getting that deep into the characters psyche was a blast and I appreciated the thoughts put forward and had no trouble staying focused because I actually cared about what the characters were trying to say. I see TTH pointed out a lot for this but it was one of my favorites! Hear a lot how DoD is a boring slog where nothing really happens but I entered into it knowing it would be a Segway into the final book and I read it as such, a sort of calm before the storm. And I enjoyed a lot of the plot threads coming together and the personal moments we get with a lot of established characters before everything gets blown the hell up. And to top it off I thought the ending was sound and well executed.

I understand why people would feel this way about these specific points, I personally don't recommend the series to certain people because I know what they read and feel like they would just not enjoy it. But honestly I didn't really feel any of the "normal" struggles with the series that a lot of people had.

Does anyone else feel this way? What are some things the general consensus says aren't the best but you actually enjoyed? Maybe some things you think people harp on too much that don't deserve the hate? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I really hope it didn't come off as pretentious or anything, I just came off a Sanderson binge and needed something with more bite to it so maybe I just landed in the Malazan world at the perfect time in my life idk.

Came across this on socials. Basically, it’s a site people can use to set their emotional expectations before reading a book. Similar to the one for movies/TV shows (does the dog die, or something like that…).

I am not involved with this project in any way, it is one comedian’s (?) personal effort for now.

https://howsadisthischapter.com/

I searched a few Malazan titles and they aren’t listed yet 🙃. Tagging this no spoilers as presumably any info shared on that site should also be free of any major spoilers.

We are now opening the sub for individual posts and comments about Legacies of Betrayal.

However, we will leave the Legacies of Betrayal Megathread open and pinned to the top, in case people would like to continue the discussions already started there.

Tavore, Kalam, Ganoes and Tattersail. I’m still trying to figure out what a telaba looks like. 😄 I just finished House of Chains so I’m itching to draw Karsa, how I’m going to visualize his giantness I have no idea…

I got about halfway into Memories of Ice (a favorite title of many and where most people agree the story really starts to grab you) and I don’t know what it was but there was a certain chapter involving some cryptic supernatural stuff where I just said to myself “what am I doing!?” and decided to DNF and I picked up another book (non-fantasy). But I find myself wanting to jump back in… maybe I just needed a break? Anyone else have a similar experience? I enjoy the prose, the lack of exposition is fine, there’s a lot to really like about these books but I’m just not a huge fan of the “gods” and the warrens, and people dying and coming back to “life” over and over, the breakdown and poisoning of the warrens, etc etc… and that’s like 75% of the plot. Any words of encouragement for fans of the series or has what I’ve just written tell you maybe it’s just not for me? I really enjoyed The First Law books and ASOIAF and I know they are very very different. It’s not the scope of the series that has me torn but just… the weirdness is sometimes a little too much. Thanks

Rating: A great fantasy novel, despite some flaws

Deadhouse Gates is actually a great book, and I definitely want to keep reading the series.

Let's start from the beginning.

The Beginning

The first 70 pages were tough. Maybe even the first 100. And honestly, I can understand why. We are introduced to a new continent, Seven Cities, along with a bunch of new characters: Duiker, Mallick Rel, Coltaine, the Wickans, and many others.

The beginning was a little boring, to be honest. I wasn't particularly interested because the plot didn't seem to be moving forward much. The storyline I was most interested in was Fiddler, Kalam, Apsalar, and Crokus, mainly because they all had the same goal: reach the Empress and kill her.

Felisin's storyline, on the other hand, was probably my least favorite part of the beginning. I found it incredibly boring at first. However, things eventually started to develop, and I became much more interested in her story.

Let's go through the main storylines one by one.

Felisin

Felisin's arc was genuinely interesting up until one particular moment: her transformation into Sha'ik.

I wasn't sure what to expect from her storyline because it was a complicated one, especially when it came to Felisin herself as a character.

She believed she was doing good things for her companions. She slept with Beneth, hoping to secure better accommodation and food for the people around her. Eventually, though, it became clear that he was manipulating her. At first, she didn't even want to be intimate with him, but over time, she began to enjoy it. He abused her, and she developed something resembling an attachment to her abuser.

That was powerful stuff. Felisin was a genuinely interesting character, and I really liked the complexity of her arc.

But then she became Sha'ik, and I was left wondering: Why?

This was probably the most frustrating part of her storyline because the transition didn't feel properly earned.

One moment, she's wandering through the desert, and the next, she's suddenly Sha'ik, ready to lead a rebellion against her own sister out of revenge.

Sure, Tavore had protected her in some ways, but Felisin basically decides, "Fuck her. I want revenge."

And okay, I can understand that. Her underlying motivation hasn't necessarily changed. But suddenly, she gains enormous power seemingly out of nowhere.

She doesn't seem to pay for any of her previous actions. She doesn't pay for trying to kill Baudin, nor does she really face the consequences of her awful personality. Somehow, she gets away with all of it and is rewarded with an enormous amount of power on top of that.

I understand that perhaps this storyline will pay off in later books, but as things stand, I wasn't particularly satisfied with the conclusion of her arc.

Everything leading up to that point, however, was excellent.

Kalam

Kalam's storyline was decent, although I wouldn't call it particularly exciting.

He brings the Book of the Apocalypse to Sha'ik, she unleashes the Whirlwind, and the rebellion begins. And that's pretty much it.

Afterward, he wanders through the desert, meets a few companions, reaches a port city, and eventually boards a ship.

I actually enjoyed the ship storyline, especially the captain and the whole situation with the treacherous crew member who betrays Kalam.

Eventually, Kalam reaches Malaz Island and the Claw's stronghold, where he meets Laseen's voice.

And honestly, I'm still not entirely sure what happened there.

Did Laseen actually convince him to abandon his mission to kill her? Or did he simply realize that she wasn't there and decide to continue looking for her elsewhere?

If anyone knows what I'm supposed to understand from that scene, feel free to explain it, as long as it doesn't involve spoilers for later books.

Mappo, Icarium, Apsalar, Crokus, and Fiddler

This storyline eventually converges with the journey of Apsalar, Crokus, and Fiddler, and I'm not entirely sure what to think about it.

Essentially, their goal was to find a D'ivers or Soletaken capable of transporting them to the Empress. They eventually accomplish that, but they never really get to interact with the Empress herself.

In retrospect, the entire journey of Apsalar, Crokus, and Fiddler feels somewhat pointless. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but that's how it felt to me.

Apsalar and her father eventually return home. Okay, I wonder whether we'll see them again.

Fiddler returns to fight in the rebellion.

And that's about it.

Honestly, this was probably my least favorite storyline. I didn't dislike it, but I struggled to see the point of the journey and what it ultimately accomplished.

There was, however, one absolutely incredible moment.

The realization that Cotillion and Ammanas are actually Dancer and Kellanved, respectively — the Emperor's right-hand man and the Emperor himself — was pure hype.

I was genuinely blown away by that reveal.

That was awesome.

The Chain of Dogs

And now, finally, the main course: the Chain of Dogs.

The beginning of this storyline was a little slow, but it eventually became incredible. I think a lot of that has to do with Duiker.

He's a great POV character, and I really enjoyed following him throughout the campaign.

There were moments during the battle scenes, however, when I honestly had no idea what was happening.

I don't know whether that's just how Erikson writes battles, but I sometimes struggled to visualize the action. I couldn't tell which direction the attack was coming from, which troops belonged to which side, how the armies were positioned, or what the terrain actually looked like.

Were they behind a slope? On top of it? Below it? Was it a hill or an actual mountain?

Sometimes I genuinely got lost.

But despite that, the Chain of Dogs is objectively the best storyline in the book, in my opinion.

I did unfortunately know one major spoiler beforehand: I knew that Coltaine was going to die.

Even so, the ending was absolutely incredible.

Coltaine

Coltaine is probably one of the greatest military commanders I've encountered in fantasy literature.

Maybe he's on the same level as Marshal West from The First Law trilogy, although, honestly, Coltaine might be even better.

What makes him so impressive is the way he commands his army under seemingly impossible circumstances. The Chain of Dogs is an extraordinary military campaign, and watching him repeatedly find ways to keep the refugees moving was incredible.

And then comes the ending.

The refugees finally make it to safety, while Coltaine and the Seventh Army of the Malazan Empire are slaughtered just a few hundred meters from the walls of Aren.

All because Mallick Rel is a treacherous snake who whispers into Pormqual's ear and convinces him not to send help.

It's fucking brilliant.

The fact that Coltaine gets so close to saving everyone, only to be abandoned at the very end, is devastating.

Then there's the scene where Coltaine is crucified and killed by an arrow, followed by the crows arriving to carry away his soul.

That scene was incredible.

I'm assuming this might mean he'll somehow be reborn, but I guess I'll have to wait and see.

The Fall of Aren

And then we get the continuation of that already devastating finale.

Mallick Rel betrays everyone, and Pormqual surrenders the army at Aren — or at least most of it, apart from the one legion that somehow managed to read the situation correctly.

Mallick Rel, Duiker, Pormqual, and most of the remaining army surrender. Everyone is crucified except Mallick Rel himself.

It's fucking brilliant, but it's also heartbreaking.

I felt particularly bad for Duiker.

The description of his crucifixion was phenomenal. It was genuinely disturbing to read, and that's exactly why it worked so well. Erikson manages to convey the horror of the situation without losing its emotional impact.

It's one of those scenes that makes you feel physically uncomfortable while reading, but you can't look away.

And that's what makes it so effective.

The Worldbuilding and Geography

I do have one significant problem with the book, though: I struggled to visualize the landscapes.

In the first book, Gardens of the Moon, I found the geography relatively easy to imagine. There were grasslands, mountains, forests, and other recognizable environments.

But in Deadhouse Gates, the landscape of Seven Cities sometimes confused me.

One moment, the characters are traveling through the desert, and then suddenly they've been walking through a forest for five kilometers.

And I'm sitting there thinking: "Wait, what? They were in a forest this whole time? I thought we were still in the desert!"

The transitions between different environments sometimes caught me off guard, and I struggled to build a consistent mental image of the continent.

Maybe that's just a consequence of Erikson's writing style, or maybe I simply need to pay closer attention to the geographical descriptions.

Either way, it was one of the few things that occasionally pulled me out of the story.

Final Thoughts

Despite my complaints, Deadhouse Gates is an excellent fantasy novel.

Some storylines worked much better for me than others. I wasn't entirely satisfied with Felisin's transformation into Sha'ik, and I found parts of Kalam's journey and the storyline involving Apsalar, Crokus, and Fiddler somewhat underwhelming.

But the Chain of Dogs more than makes up for those weaknesses.

Coltaine's military campaign, Duiker's perspective, the desperate journey of the refugees, and the absolutely devastating ending make this book worth reading on their own.

The ending was phenomenal. Coltaine's fate was heartbreaking, Duiker's final scenes were horrifying, and the whole tragedy surrounding the fall of Aren was incredibly well executed.

I also really enjoyed the larger revelations about Cotillion, Ammanas, Dancer, and Kellanved.

And despite occasionally struggling with the geography and some of the battle descriptions, I had a great time with the book overall.

Unfortunately, the third book hasn't been published in Ukrainian yet, and since I'm from Ukraine, I'll have to wait a little longer before continuing the series in my native language.

But I absolutely intend to keep reading.

A great book, great fantasy, and one hell of a military campaign.

I can't wait to read the next one.

I am currently reading House of Chains, but I'm getting a bit confused about the hierarchy and size of the Malazan military.

My understanding is that size goes from largest to smallest:

Army, Legion, Company, Squad. Am I correct? What is the size of these groups, how many companies make up a legion etc?

I’m currently reading LoB. Random thoughts on the world.
Do the warrens and holds give substance and stability to the world? Like the environment and workings of nature? Like, is magic one of the lifebloods and foundations of its reality? Would the world cease to be able to function if the warrens and holds disappeared? I guess my underlying confusion is, if Icarium created all of these new warrens, why isn’t the world way more screwed up IF the warrens and holds up until then where responsible for its creation and stability?

In Deadhouse Gates book, the Chain of Dogs storyline, Keneb remembers when he last heard the word Jhistal which causes him to find Blistig. Blistig doesn't march out of Aren based on this information. What is the significance of the word Jhistal to Keneb which clues him in that Mallick Rel will betray the Empire?

After I finish NoTME, I plan on reading one of those two but can't decide which, any advice to give?

My ideal Malazan would have been five books, ending with a reworked Toll the Hounds

Malazan has given me some of the most powerful reading experiences of my life. But the further I get into the series, the more I find myself imagining a shorter version: five dense, tightly woven books, built around books 1–4, with a substantially reworked Toll the Hounds as the finale.

Obviously, this would require a massive rewrite. I’m talking about a different overall structure, with the major conflicts and character arcs developed toward a shared ending.

For me, the Letheras storyline is where I first started feeling that Erikson was losing his grip on the story. I don’t mean that the writing suddenly became bad, or that those characters and ideas have no value. There’s a lot there to admire. But that was the point where the expansion of the world started working against my investment in it.

After four books spent building attachments and trying to understand how the different conflicts fit together, being moved into another enormous setting, with another cast and another political and historical framework, felt exhausting. I wanted the existing threads to deepen and converge. Instead, I felt I was being asked to start the process of finding my bearings all over again.

And it wasn’t just the change of location. It was the growing sense that every answer opened several more questions, and every storyline brought another layer of history, metaphysics, or deliberate uncertainty. I enjoy having to work as a reader, but eventually that uncertainty stopped feeling intriguing and started becoming a barrier to emotional involvement. I could still appreciate individual scenes while feeling increasingly disconnected from the direction of the series as a whole.

That’s why Toll the Hounds feels so compelling to me as the foundation for an alternative ending. Anomander Rake’s sacrifice has the emotional weight and sense of culmination I would want from a series finale. My dream rewrite would bring the Crippled God’s storyline into that same climax.

In this version, the Dying God would be reimagined as the Crippled God’s liberated reincarnation: a being finally freed from his original imprisonment, but still shaped and corrupted by everything he had suffered. His liberation would therefore become part of the final crisis, with the consequences of that suffering reaching their culmination.

Rake’s sacrifice would also lead to the Dying God’s death, bringing those threads together in one final convergence. It could preserve the tragedy and compassion of the story while giving the central conflict a resolution inseparable from one of its most powerful character moments.

What appeals to me is the possibility of five books in which the density steadily builds toward that ending. The mysteries, detours, and histories would still be there, but their relationship to the final climax would feel stronger.

I understand that the sprawling scale is a huge part of what other readers love about Malazan. For me, though, a more concentrated version could have preserved everything that made me fall in love with it while avoiding the fatigue I started feeling around Letheras. Five books ending on a reworked Rake sacrifice would have been my ideal version.

I’m about 90% through Toll the Hounds with two books left, and I wanted to see whether my frustrations are shared or whether I’m missing something.

What I love: Erikson’s prose is some of the best in fantasy. The dialogue is sharp, the action is excellent, the settings are vivid, and when the musings land, they really land. Maybe 60% of them engage me, and a few have genuinely stuck with me. “Children are dying” and “compassion is given freely” are lines I’ll remember for a long time. The series is great, and that’s exactly why I find the problems frustrating.

1. Too much at once. After Midnight Tides, the POV count balloons, and the cost is that the stakes get diluted. It’s hard to care about a new character when I’ve only just met them and the book has to split its time across a dozen others. It hurts most at climaxes. I’m deep into a duel I care about, then I get a paragraph break and 20 pages of Nimander, a character I couldn’t care less about, before I can get back. The same thing happened in Memories of Ice, where I was in the middle of a battle and got pulled away to Mhybe for four pages. Cutting away isn’t the issue, since some of it works. But it keeps happening at the worst moments, and over time it breeds resentment that makes the climaxes land worse.

2. Threads that go nowhere. LOST is my favourite show ever, and I know it gets flak for throwing things at the wall, but Malazan makes it look disciplined. Plot lines get dropped, sometimes within the same book, and I end up wondering why they were introduced at all. Banaschar and D’rek in The Bonehunters looked like they’d lead to some eerie cult storyline, and nothing came of it. Reaper’s Gale teases an Icarium vs Karsa fight for the entire book, and it doesn’t happen. Even the Crippled God hasn’t intimidated me once, 90% of the way through Toll the Hounds. I get that Erikson likes subverting expectations, but there’s a difference between subverting a payoff and just never delivering one.

3. The magic and the dream sequences. I don’t need hard magic. Elder Scrolls and LOTR don’t have it either, and I love both. But soft magic works when it’s mysterious or at least consistent, and here it’s both unconstrained and constantly used to solve problems. The dreamworld and warren sections are the worst offenders. Udinaas’s chapters in Midnight Tides and Reaper’s Gale, and Quick Ben’s and the Hedge’s journey in Reaper’s Gale left me with no idea what I was meant to take away, whether it was worldbuilding, metaphor, or just plot. They felt like they only made sense to Erikson.

4. Power-ups and twists that don’t feel earned. This has been there since book one. Tattersail blows up and comes back as Silverfox. Paran goes from a young captain to Master of the Deck. Touching a hound’s blood somehow puts him inside the sword that killed it. A gift from a Tano spirit walker eventually makes the Bridgeburners ascendants and a perfect deus ex machina in House of Chains Even Memories of Ice’s biggest moment, Itkovian taking the pain of the Imass and the memories becoming ice that revives their dead warren, left me feeling something epic and poignant, but also confused about how the mechanics worked. It felt like Erikson wrote each idea as it occurred to him, not like it was building toward something. A few of these twists fit cleanly, but most seem to come out of nowhere.

5. Communication, not intelligence. I think I’m an adequate reader. When I follow a musing or a piece of worldbuilding, it’s pure fantasy exhilaration. But sometimes I think the problem isn’t that it’s meant to be hard to follow. I think Erikson had something clear in his head and it just didn’t make it onto the page. The logic of the world and the meaning of some of the laments and railings seem to exist fully in his mind and only partly in mine.

None of this makes it a bad series. I’m obviously invested, and I’ll finish it. But I think it could have been better with fewer POVs, tighter payoffs, and clearer communication.

Do others share these frustrations? Did they bother you, or do they get resolved or feel different on a reread? Please no spoilers past Toll the Hounds, right now I'm at the part where Rake is fighting Dassem and took a breather because I had been reading for 4 hours straight and also to vent a bit.