Recently wrote about a conversation on the philosophy of animals/pets, in the form of a conversation based on real conversations I've had recently that got me thinking. Thought people here might enjoy!

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F: “But what’s the point?”

O: “Erm, friendship, companionship, love? You know, things that non-psychopathic people like?”

F: “But the dog doesn’t love you…they’re just acting off instinct…they” Felix did air quotes when he said the word “love you because they know you are where their next meal is coming from.”

Felix moved to the UK when he was 16 so now, at the age of 27, has this bizarre hybrid accent complete with German Vs, crisp consonants and non-rhotic Rs.

“Well that’s obviously not true.” replied Olivia, or ‘Liv’ as pretty much everyone under the age of 72 calls her.

UR: “I didn’t really believe the date on the sign outside.” It said ‘Founded in 1652’ which to me seemed an implausible date for a pub to be founded. You’re telling me whilst Charles I’s head was on a pike outside Whitehall, someone thought it was a good idea to build a pub? A pub that then survived the lack of patronage during the plague years and the inferno of the fire of London? I don’t buy it. The other two ignored this and continued to argue.

F: “What do you mean?”

O: “Of course your dog loves you. It’s part of the family. If it’s hungry and has the choice between steak and rescuing you from a burning building, it’s going into the building. It would defend you from a tiger, even though that’s a stupid thing to do, and really bad for its chances of passing on its genes. How could that instinct have evolved?”

F: “I didn’t know there were tigers in Surrey!”

I chortled at this. Olivia didn’t - she sipped her pint of Guinness that was 56% complete and then said “Brilliant. You’re deflecting because you know I’m right.”

F: “That love is instinct. You are the pack-leader, it’s been conditioned by evolution to protect the pack to maximise its survival probability. Well, technically the genes are doing this to maximise their proliferation, but the result is the same.”

Felix studied Medical Genetics at university, where we all met. He sipped his own Guinness which was only 48% done before asking me what I thought.

UR: “I think I’m more with Liv, here.”

O: “Felix, you’re only saying that because you didn’t have dogs growing up, you don’t know what it’s like. They really are a part of the family. As a species we have been owning dogs for millennia.”

F: “There! That’s what freaks me out. It’s not a normal relationship - you own” he emphasised that last word. He likes to do that “the dog. And we’re all ok with it. It’s fundamentally asymmetric.”

O: “But aren’t all relationships asymmetric? Kids rely on their parents. Your girlfriend relies on you.”

To hear more unhinged conversations in pubs:

She never misses an opportunity to jab at Felix’s girlfriend. Felix didn’t appreciated that, hence why the implications of his reply were a little harsh:

“It’s different. Those relationships are conditional. Your dog will probably love you no matter what. You can treat it like shit and it will still love you. This is why the whole thing makes me uncomfortable. Like, and don’t take this the wrong way, there is something a bit sus about wanting that type of love. About wanting something that can’t really think for itself to be totally devoted to you no matter what. I don’t know…”

The pub sat just off Fleet Street. Being in central London, there are a minimum of 100 interesting historical facts associated with locations within a 100m radius. Here are some:

• Fleet Street itself - depicted by Roberts, referenced by Dickens - was the home of publishing houses and broadsheet newspaper offices from like 1750 to 2000.
• Close by is Gresham College, sort of a precursor to The Royal Society (which founded roughly the same time this pub was - allegedly).
• One of the attendees of Gresham was Sir Christopher Wren (along with Wilkins, Boyle, possibly Newton), who famously designed St Paul’s, just visible from this pub’s top floor.

A rare quaint refuge in a suffocating maze of commercial glass.

Inside the pub, an unguarded fire was roaring even though it was a warm October day. There were 10+ room-temperature ales on cask. The whole place smelled vaguely off, sort of mediaeval, like the remnants of the plague were still embedded into the walls somehow.

UR: “Does that matter, though? Why does the ability to think make a difference?”

O: “It doesn’t.”

F: “I don’t know, surely your relationship with a friend is so much…deeper? Surely you understand each other much better? I don’t know what a dog is thinking and it can’t tell me.”

UR: “Yeah…a dog has less consciousness…less free will…less ability to explain and understand. Right? I don’t think it’s one thing, it’s like this fuzzy collection of things that make relationships with humans…better, I guess, in some way? If I understand what you’re saying Felix?”

F: “Yeah, exactly.”

I imagined Newton et al. having a similar conversation, possibly (allegedly) in this very pub.

UR: “I wonder if like Wilkins and Wren had these types of conversations in coffee houses and pubs around here.”

F: “Who?”

Olivia has chestnut hair and a mole on the left side of her chin. She was wearing baggy Levi jeans and white t-shirt that exposed 3.5cm of her midriff. She had 4 earrings in each ear. There was a patch of some anonymous brown substance in the shape of China on her right calf. She was focused:

“So you think relationships with less intelligent humans are worse, then? Why not just come out and say that you think they are inferior, as well? If dogs are inferior somehow…”

F: “Hold on, I’m not saying that.”

UR: “Sounds like you are.”

F: “Whose side are you on?”

UR: “Hey, I’m just trying to get to the right answer here.”

O: “Ha, I’ve got you.”

F: “Ok, ok, listen. All relationships, with humans, are different. How smart the other person is will factor into the quality of the relationship, as do many other things…”

Olivia began to say something, but Felix cut her off:

“...but animals are different. Yes, I do think humans matter more. All humans are born with essentially the same brain, with the same capacity to think about anything.”

O: “But why does capacity matter? Surely it’s what you can think about now that matters?”

Felix didn’t have an answer to this so decided to sip his Guinness instead, which was now 72% complete. The table directly behind us were discussing the relative merits of East vs. West London, which was mildly distracting. Olivia continued:

“I hate this idea of hierarchy, it always seems to end with eugenics and horrible mistreatment of the quote ‘inferior’ class. The same applies to animals - look at the horrible things we do to them. We need to get away from it.”

F: “So you don’t think humans matter more, in some way?”

O: “I don’t think we should be asking those types of questions…”

F: “But you would say we should be treating animals better, more equally?”

O: “Yeah, definitely.”

F: “How?”

O: “What?”

F: “Like, practically, how? What’s an example?”

O: “I don’t know, maybe tell billionaires to make slightly less profit by not polluting the oceans with so much plastic? Seems pretty basic, no?”

F: “You know people die if we do stuff like that, right? Factory workers in developing countries lose their jobs, and their families starve.”

They were really staring into each others’ eyes now. I sensed sexual tension and it made me uncomfortable. Nothing had happened between them at that point, that I knew of, but in that moment I felt sure something eventually would. Felix continued:

“If you don’t have a hierarchy in which humans are at the top, you get all types of weird outcomes that seem fundamentally wrong. You get hundreds of millions spent on building bat caves for a few hundred bats. You know that money could have been spent saving thousands of lives, right? You get tigers not being killed when a human enters the cage. Those are both real examples, imagine what happens when you take the idea of equality with animals seriously. Are you not going to kill a mosquito when it lands on you, are you not going to clean your desk because bacteria die?”

O: “Well that’s just ridiculous. I’m just saying we should stop thinking in terms of hierarchies.”

UR: “If you do that, society collapses.”

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Note: this was originally posted on substack here.

This afternoon I went to my local Wegman's. I got about $100 of groceries&as I was exiting the side door near the seated eating area/Burger Bar, I see an SUV parked parallel to the curb waiting for their party. It's a 30-ish man w/his golden leaning over the front seat from the back seat. It was huge.

My car is perpendicular to the SUV and parked in a space. It's super windy and my receipt is about to fly away so I place it in my purse.

I start bagging my groceries to put in my trunk. I'm working on the 2nd and last bag, when I notice the sliding doors of the SUV open to allow an elderly woman to enter.

At the same time the wind changes direction and I'm pelted in the face with the combined scent of Eu Du Doggo and that plumeria dog perfume that literally everyone in town uses because everywhere I go it's the same odor.

It's thoroughly vile!

So basically the scent&particulates are flying through the air with these cray wind gusts that just came out of left field. My groceries and car are now tainted. As soon as the doors opened it was like I was inside their car and could smell everything. The car was a good 12 ft away.

I was absolutely not prepared for this and super nervous as I have tested positive for dog allergy. Fortunately I didn't have a reaction other than being super grossed out. Dog perfume turns my stomach.

I made a nasty face at the lady and waved my waved my hand in front of my face after turning my head away to give her a subtle clue that her car smelled like a kennel before closing my trunk&returning the cart. By the time I got back to my car they had gone.

Definitely makes me more wary about where I park from now on. It's bad enough the foyer of my condo smells like dog ass 24/7& I went to the grocery store to get away from all the nutters. While I didn't see any dogs inside, the outside was unexpectedly worse.

I think pit bans are not effective unless you address the general dog culture along with it. 

The UK and France have both banned pits and all i see on the streets is people walking pits. Like, what is even the point? Pitbull is literally the 3rd most popular breed of dog in France and the streets are CHOKE FULL of pits! It seems like every other dog owner has a pit. UK is marginally better, but still, i see a lot of pits in a country where they are supposedly banned for decades.

Do you think breed bans are effective? Do you think they should be improved? If yes, how? Or should there be an altogether different legal mechanism to cut down on the ownership of these dogs?

Kind of a little rant but I recently got back home from an evening walk with my husband and my 2 year old. Weather was good and we were minding our own business when I looked behind myself (I'm holding my kids hand) and one of those filthy fucking rats are sniffing my kid, running around her side to side. I instantly start shouting "no" at the thing and the owner picks it up, she was walking with some friends and they picked up the other rat. I shouted "how hard is it to put it on a leash?" (which was slung over the owners shoulder...) and they say nothing as they walk away from us. Go to the next block, they drop the mutants down on the sidewalk to be unleashed once again.

I don't fucking care that the dog was tiny. I don't know your dog and I don't care to know it, especially not when it's off leash in the presence of my child. I may have gone overboard, I'm a bit more protective than usual and maybe that's because I'm 8 months pregnant... but I'm still fuming.

Don’t say anything to me but if you must, then promise me your dog is snooty and will point its head elsewhere when I walk by.

Also men that are pet owners, stop getting pets in the hopes it will help you get a date. When you see me walking along my local trail or in my local park, I noticed you notice me. I also noticed you slow down. I changed direction on purpose. Do not try to intercept me at an intersection at some other part of the trail. I will veer off and leave while you stand there in shock with your dog(s).

Luckily enough for me, I’ve not had much random encounters with dogs in businesses, especially grocery stores and restaurants. But something really stupid happened and I just wanted to rant a little.

I had to find a place to repair a pair of glasses. I was already kind of annoyed after not being able to find parking at the first place, and having to drive across town to a different one.

I park my car, walk in, and before I can even fully open their front door, I was greeted by loud barks (more like yaps). I look up and there’s some kind of small rat dog walking over the counter where the receptionist sits. I’m so taken aback by this absurdity I literally stopped in my tracks, hand still on the half open door, standing in the doorway.

The employee welcomes me warmly, totally oblivious to my blank, shocked expression and lack of enthusiasm: “Come in, come in! Do you like dogs?” My brain stopped functioning for a moment, WTF is going on? I thought this is an optician place, not a damn dog park. Did I step through a worm hole into some crazy nutter planet? Is this nice young man nuts? Or am I nuts?

Finally, I regain my composure, looked at him with confused disgust and said in a very firm tone: “No.”And just walked out. Hopefully the message is clear enough.

We have new neighbors with a dog. Their dog has dug under the fence and comes to my house daily to mark his territory, shit and otherwise own the place. The dog is friendly but I hate him. The neighbors are friendly but now I hate them. I do my best to be polite but I have not brought myself to confront them about the way they let their dog impose on me and my yard.

At our last house our neighbors did the same thing and my 3 year old was attacked in his own yard by a senile chihuahua who instantly forgot what he did and wanted affection from us everyday afterwards further traumatizing my baby.My son is 6 now and still terrified of dogs. Now I have another dog claiming my child’s safe zone as his own and I don’t know what to do. I mean I do know but I am so pissed I worry they will make it worse but I have to address it today.

Yesterday I went outside and he was on my porch. I got their number off his tag and it’s burning a hole in my pocket.

Can you guys help me draft a text telling them to patch up their fence and keep their shit machine on their own property...respectfully so.

Today, I saw a really big sign at the grocery store entrance where we shop.

A couple months ago, I had complained to the manager and also had posted a review online.

I specifically mentioned the dog that I saw in a grocery cart.

The sign said;

No Dogs Allowed In Grocery Store

No Dogs Allowed In Shopping Carts

I don't know if I had any influence on the sign being posted, but it felt like a small win. It also gave me a huge sense of relief.

Tho I do not hate them, I am terrified of dogs. So the whole bringing dogs into places where they have no business thingie is really, REALLY annoying. But God above, nothing beats today.

A dog on a Columbus ride (idk what its called in other countries but its the one with the boat that swings up and down). Some weirdos not only brought their dog to a carnival with loud blaring noises and several attractions which may trigger it and cause problems to everyone else, but decided to put it on a ride it absolutely did not want to be on. That thing tried to keep running off from the owner's lap, it was absolutely afraid.

These people also took had what looked like a months old baby on the ride. What on Earth.

I feel bad for my neighbor who is this elderly lady living by herself with 3 pretty large dogs. She isn’t strong enough to walk more than one at a time so basically every 30 minutes she takes a different dog out for a walk and it yanks her arm around and drags her around wherever it wants to go. They’ll pull her into the road or grass or whatever. I’m surprised I haven’t seen her fall down yet. This entire summer her little grandkids came to visit like one or two times and she never leaves because she’s stuck on dog duty all day every day. She’s for sure missing out on precious time seeing her grandkids grow up all for these dumb dogs.

It's what my spouse and I call houses that we go tour during our house shopping that have dogs. The funniest part if they were very insistent to our agent that everyone remove their shoes in the house. I am actually very pro-no-shoe as well, but when your house is filthy with dog hair everywhere and I have to THROW MY SOCKS OUT after walking on your floors because your mutt's hair has intertwined itself into my socks, I am definitely peeved.

Wanting over half a million for a house and you can't run a vacuum.. typical dog people. Entitled, out of touch.

Every time it's a doghouse, it always has neglect to basics like roof, windows etc. It's a certain type of person, these dog people... 🏚️👎🏼

Not sure if this is allowed but I just saw a post on TikTok that disturbed me. It was from a mom who was asking what to do because her child (toddler I believe) was hospitalized and they found out she has some lung related health issues and the dog was exasperating it because she was allergic to it and the mom was genuinely asking what to do. The simple answer is rehome your effing dog. There were people in the comments telling her to designate a dog space and a child space in her home. Her child should be free to roam around the house what the heck. And she was responding super snarkily to comments outright telling her to rehome the dog

I was having breakfast at a picnic area with tables, and a low (like knee height) spigot with a drain.

Routinely, dog nutters let their dogs French kiss the spigot while they drink. That’s disgusting.

But today?! A woman with a leashed dog let the dog pee on the spigot!! She was standing right next to the dog, on her phone.

I said that was disgusting. She heard me, acknowledged it, accepted it, and then went about her way.