To all the leftists in this sub

[u/ayoodyl]

[u/auto-sticky]

If you're new here, please read our rules.

Please report all trolling, bad faith, and bigoted comments (dogwhistles, sneaky wordplay, and devil's advocate comments included).

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Lastly, keep it respectful.

[u/Imnotnewhere_07]

I support the progressive movement, but many of you don’t participate in primaries or local and state elections. The yall become frustrated with the choices available to you.

[u/brownbutterfinger → u/Imnotnewhere_07]

For the primaries in my state last month only ~2,000 people voted in my city of 65,000. People are just not showing up.

But it's easier to complain on socials. I know way too many people complaining about the state of things, but didnt even know about the primaries until I told them AND THEY STILL DIDNT VOTE

[u/PMKingJones → u/brownbutterfinger]

DC is the same way. The mayoral candidate won the primary with 76K votes. The city has (had) 700,000 people. That person is guaranteed to win the November election. DC is probably the hardest-hit place in the entire country by this administration.

[u/MsMarvelsProstate → u/brownbutterfinger]

My city has about 75,000 people in it. Our last city council member won with 1100 votes.

[u/Alchemyst01984 → u/Imnotnewhere_07]

Me too. If people really want another option, I think that can come through with the labor movement. We need more unions for that.

[u/2Hanks → u/Imnotnewhere_07]

Bingo. Something like 10% of voters elect 80% of our representatives because so few people show up in primaries and most districts are free from competition.

[u/slingshot91 → u/Imnotnewhere_07]

Correct. We didn’t get the fascist regime all at once. It was built brick by brick, and vote by vote. Republicans voted consistently for decades and look what they’ve accomplished. The rightward shift is honestly impressive. If we want to move left, we have to be consistent and show up and vote for some duds along the way.

[u/EngrishTeach → u/Imnotnewhere_07]

I did participate. I tried to help my friend run. An 80 year old man beat him.

[u/Rakebleed → u/Imnotnewhere_07]

Exactly. Leftists your time is in the primaries. That is where you dictate the direction of the party the most fits your values. The general election is when you hold your nose and show up for the sake of the country you purport to care about. Otherwise you’re a fraud and can frankly shut the fuck up.

[u/marxistbot → u/Rakebleed]

Leftists and progressives, cause let's be super clear we are not the same, are both magnitudes more active in Primaries than their "centrist" or "apolitical" neighbors. The problem is, as popular as many progressive and even leftist policy positions are, very few Americans actually identify as progressive or leftist.

[u/talkingtimmy3 → u/Imnotnewhere_07]

I would more so argue that money is the biggest issue in politics. There were a ton of close primaries and I think people really came out to support their ideal candidate. Ultimately, the people with the biggest campaign ($$$) succeeded. And that’s because each party supports certain people and the rich/corps throw money at whoever will take their bribe. If you’re not a part of the “in” crowd then you will struggle to survive primaries. Money has ruined politics a long time ago and it’s only gotten worse.

[u/ateam1984 → u/Imnotnewhere_07]

Black people do participate. What do you mean?

[u/Nalano]

Plus Jill Stein is this vampire who only comes out of her coffin once every four years to siphon votes from the Democratic candidate for her Russian masters, and then disappears in a flock of bats for the other 99% of the fucking time.

Want someone to the left of the DNC? The DSA has been making great strides in local and regional elections, and have a number of candidates running under the Democratic ticket in the general because they actually won their primaries.

[u/id_Driven → u/Nalano]

I am fully convinced that she is only paid through Russia and the actual money and support she has is American business.

[u/NotBradPitt9 → u/id_Driven]

There’s another country directly influencing American politics, and it sure as hell has a higher amount of power than Russia

[u/oh-kee-pah → u/Nalano]

More pics of her with evil Russians than me with my folks

[u/Naive-Register7964 → u/Nalano]

Also wanna acknowledge that the Republican Party having been working on grassroots campaigning and winning and taking over local elections BEFORE TRUMPS FIRST TERM and arguably before that.

We have a lot of catching up to do.

[u/SwiftySanders]

Im sorry but the time to vote for leftist people is in the Democratic primary. Most leftists dont understand that you have to participate in the primary. They dont lnow how to have power.

[u/Fool_Manchu → u/SwiftySanders]

Pushing for rank choice voting would also help immensely.

[u/BoneVoyager → u/Fool_Manchu]

Ranked choice voting, implemented correctly, would completely fix the issue

[u/metalbees → u/Fool_Manchu]

I think that's the point of the video. We're never going to get to ranked choice voting without consistently electing more progressive but imperfect lawmakers.

[u/Careful-Hat4059 → u/SwiftySanders]

Spot on. Primary is all about your preferred choice and who matches your values the most. The general is about winning. You want to bring people to your side get involved at the primary stage.

[u/darxide23 → u/Careful-Hat4059]

"I don't vote because the candidates are pre-chosen anyway."

....yea. By us. In the primaries. Are you stupid?

 

 

This is an actual conversation I've had multiple times.

[u/DamadDiallo → u/Careful-Hat4059]

But we have been doing that oh my god are you for real?? The corporate democrats will rather nuke their own chances by fielding one dogshit candidate after another than let us have a free and fair primary process without the intervention of the super-delegates. You can keep shouting at the voters but never question the system that allows someone like Trump to win elections. All he had to do was beat two of the most establishment friendly who just happened to be two of the most unpopular candidates (I'm sure there's no correlation). The moment he had to face a semi decent politician in Biden who actually ran on a platform with a semblance of workers friendly policies, Trump was handed an L. Though I'm sure you'll point to racism or sexism to shield the braindead party.

[u/LeadershipForeign → u/DamadDiallo]

Fuck this. I'll bet you were talking about "bombala harris" and "genocide Joe" in the general. If you didn't support them then, who were the clear best choice for Palestine.... Eat shit.

[u/Sufficient-Lie1406 → u/SwiftySanders]

As Randi Rhodes once said, "Fall in love in the primary, fall in line in the general."

[u/NotBradPitt9 → u/SwiftySanders]

Make super PACs illegal. Pass laws that only allow campaign contributions from individual voters up to a set small monetary amount (200 dollars max). That will fix some things.

[u/Alchemyst01984 → u/SwiftySanders]

And then when you tell them that, they still make excuses. "All the candidates suck."

I'd consider myself a leftist, but damn some people can never be satisfied.

[u/brownbutterfinger → u/Alchemyst01984]

There's literally someone above you citing both parties being right wing as to why its pointless to vote in primaries. So many leftists get stuck in some defeatist attitude about how "the money is against us" and use that as an excuse to do nothing until "the revolution" comes.

If youre going to do nothing, at least go to the polls and vote on the one progressive running for the primary.

[u/Brave-Let-470 → u/SwiftySanders]

Brought to you by US education system because remember that one class in the 7th grade that taught civics and how the government works? (90s kid) imagine teaching how the government works to a bunch of 12 year olds and expecting it to stick 🤌🏽🤌🏽🤌🏽

[u/Elros22 → u/SwiftySanders]

Vote principles in the primary. Vote pracgmatic in the general.

[u/archercc81 → u/SwiftySanders]

90% of the people who complain about the candidates have never participated in a primary. Ive worked every primary and election for decades and our turnouts in primaries are abysmal.

[u/BurnieTrogdor → u/archercc81]

Thank you for your work. This cycle was the first time I canvassed for a campaign. She was a long shot and she lost, but it was a great use of my time. I think she would be amazing in the state senate.

My favorite choice lost the primary, but I’m still going to vote in the general election.

[u/archercc81 → u/BurnieTrogdor]

And that is, unfortunately, the best you can do in our system until we get some real reform (like ranked choice).

[u/BirdAndWords → u/SwiftySanders]

People also don’t get that the time to start building a base for a leftest candidate is the day after the election so they have the name and base to get onto the primary ballot and then to win the primary to get onto the general ballot!!!! It’s what we did in Denver with Melat Kiros and she unseated a long serving neo-lib incumbent in the primary.

[u/barbarianinalibrary → u/SwiftySanders]

Occupy the dnc

[u/thecomeric → u/SwiftySanders]

The leftist candidate in my primaries are conservative as hell

[u/getthatrich → u/thecomeric]

You should run or get an actual leftist to run then!

[u/0xf5f → u/SwiftySanders]

fuckin a

[u/Pandoratastic → u/SwiftySanders]

Absolutely. You can for leftists in the primary. You can even vote third party in local elections. But it is way too early to vote third party in the national election, especially for President.

I hope we will eventually reach a point where a third party has enough power to be viable at the Presidential election level but we're not there yet. And wasting a vote in the Presidential election is not how we get there. If anything, that just takes us further away from that goal because, every time a Republican becomes President, the Overton Window slides further to the right.

[u/Qcconfidential → u/SwiftySanders]

When leftists participated in the primary yall didn’t like that lol. Look at all the primary challenges this cycle.

[u/SnoobNoob7860 → u/SwiftySanders]

they don’t understand this because they are not serious voters

Half of them are online right now trying to convince people not to fucking vote

They are simply unreliable

[u/IndividualFun1892 → u/SwiftySanders]

Remember when the Democratic Party made the main candidate a person nobody voted for? How much did that primary matter?

[u/This_Technology9841 → u/SwiftySanders]

And we didnt get one of those with Kamala and had to choose do we want Palestine genocide with pride flags or Palestine genocide with maga flags. Dems losing consistently because they keep trying to court republican voters instead of their own progressives has been evergreen.

[u/jollyreaper2112 → u/This_Technology9841]

Corporate Dems being dogshit doesn't mean trump isn't worse than harris. That's just incoherent.

[u/beckhansen13 → u/SwiftySanders]

The primaries need to be fair. DNC needs to step back. Iowa and all the media behind it needs to stfu. We need a national primary with a second runoff election.

[u/sporknitebattlepass]

Please start conceiving of a politics that exists outside of a voting booth you walk into every couple of years.

[u/Silient_Qiller → u/sporknitebattlepass]

That’s the problem right there. There’s an election pretty much every year. Local elections are just as important as presidential

[u/sporknitebattlepass → u/Silient_Qiller]

I more meant actually organizing to disrupt the state and capital’s capacity to oppress us by building a militant movement founded on the principles of mutual aid and solidarity

vote for your local politicians or whatever, but that is not the end of your political engagement. Go out and do shit instead of expected elected representatives to do it for you.

[u/MagazineNecessary698 → u/sporknitebattlepass]

https://giphy.com/gifs/uka8JYyV2H3s4
Yes

[u/Sufficient-Lie1406 → u/Silient_Qiller]

Sometimes local is MORE important. School boards, city council, judges, district attorneys, state/city/county services, these all affect your daily life. And may I add that if you're not attending city council meetings, you really should be, it is THE place to hold your local police accountable.

[u/Keleos89 → u/sporknitebattlepass]

Do that, but also make sure you vote.

[u/neversince95]

I don’t think people understand that roads, parks, libraries, two day weekends, 5 day work weeks, child labor laws, tons of other societally beneficial norms are all thanks to leftists lol

[u/Deviknyte → u/neversince95]

And it came from direct labor action, not voting.

[u/marxistbot → u/Deviknyte]

It came from both. If everyone in congress was an unpersuadable fascist paid off by billionaires, neither the Civil Rights Act nor labor laws would ever have been passed

[u/No_Palpitation_6976 → u/Deviknyte]

True

[u/Control_Glittering → u/neversince95]

you cant just use leftist as an omnitemporal identity to claim credit for all of those efforts made to improve to improve American life. the “leftists” of yore wouldnt even consider the modern leftist position of killing capitalism in a revolution and would rather achieve socialist policy through constitutional process.

most importantly, there is so much of a difference between taking up arms over the things you listed vs hostaging the last election over palestine, when there is no state in the US where we are doing well or are even “happy”. why would i thank a leftist protesting the nyc mayor, the first genuine human in that position in a long time, over palestine????

[u/outsidehere → u/neversince95]

They think that voting is the only way to get things done and get really mad when you remind them that it's not

[u/anand_rishabh → u/outsidehere]

You should still vote though. Voting is a bare minimum. Organizing and the protesting will yield much better results if the people in power are at least somewhat amenable to your grievances

[u/outsidehere → u/anand_rishabh]

Absolutely

[u/Ok-Bluebird-7836]

Gavin Newsom will never win; he smiles during tragedy and is already corrupt.

[u/Living_Plane_662]

All the 3rd party candidates backed Trump last election. I haven't trusted any of those fake leftist shows that promoted Tulsi or RFK Jr. Turns out it was all b.s.

[u/pan-re → u/Living_Plane_662]

Fuck Tulsi what’s her creepy ass up to?

[u/Intestellr_overdrive]

If you keep voting for the same sucking up to capital liberals you’re not going to get anywhere either. Mamdani is walking proof that you don’t have to just settle for status quo

[u/Hidanas]

Ahh here we are again with Schrodinger's Leftist. Leftists aren't important to listen to and Dems don't need their votes if Dems win. Leftists gave the Republicans a win by sticking to their principals if Dems lose. But the one thing Dems won't do is fight for policies that Progressives like or support Progressive candidates. Why? Because Dems would rather lose with Republicans than win with Progressives.

[u/kittykatmila]

You’re not a leftist then, you’re a liberal.

[u/lembepembe]

The majority of leftists I know including me do exactly what this talking point describes. The reasoning behind just makes limited sense to me. The biggest problem fucking the US is the two party system which traps everyone in a capitalist, fascism accepting party and a capitalist, fascism promoting party.

I agree with the take, but it will not fix what’s fundamentally broken. Our civil duty is not done with voting when we vote for two steps forward against 4 steps back powers.

[u/KJongsDongUnYourFace → u/lembepembe]

If you vote for a party that actively trampled on your rights, then you are signaling to them that its acceptable and they will have your support.

[u/onyxengine → u/KJongsDongUnYourFace]

This! The energy of the turn out tells them what they can get away with. ICE wouldn’t be blatantly violating the due process right now if last elections went in favor of democrats.

[u/Dead_Internet69420]

Save your third party votes for when we have ranked-choice voting. Until then, we have to choose candidates that can actually win.

[u/TheTapeTech → u/Dead_Internet69420]

If you’re constantly voting between 2 politicians that don’t support ranked choice voting, how do you get ranked choice voting on the ballot?

[u/Fool_Manchu → u/TheTapeTech]

Some states, like my home state of MI, allow citizens to initiate legislation and get issues on the ballot through petition. This is how we have forced Marijuana legalization, equal marriage rights, independent redistricting, and universal reproductive rights. In states that dont have this feature? Idk.

[u/TheTapeTech → u/Fool_Manchu]

Yeah, it depends greatly on the state.

At any rate, more people have to participate in primaries in general.

[u/Chendii → u/TheTapeTech]

By voting in the primaries.

[u/TheTapeTech → u/Chendii]

Need more ppl to participate in primaries.

[u/Main-Recording-1129]

Maybe some leftists are looking for perfection, but I am looking for the bare minimum and these candidates can’t even reach that. I don’t want to spend my whole life voting for Clintons and Kamalas. And they have zero incentive to run real progressives if I do. Probably going to end up an anarchist at some point.

[u/Main-Recording-1129 → u/Main-Recording-1129]

And yes, I vote in primaries

[u/outsidehere → u/Main-Recording-1129]

Thank you! Every election is a "diarrhea vs shit" competition. One is better than the other but they both still suck. And then they get mad when they get reminded that they don't have to choose poop at all. They can just choose food

[u/ScarpMetal → u/Main-Recording-1129]

I’m not a leftist but even I’m annoyed at having to vote for Clinton/Kamala/Biden. None of them were close to my first choice. But I still do because it’s the right thing to do with the little power I’m given in our democracy. I figure if we can get to the point where Democrats are winning again, and we quadruple down on good modern governance, better candidates will become more viable in the future.

[u/Main-Recording-1129 → u/[deleted]]

Ohh I think I’ve seen him on FD’s channel, gonna check him out now!

[u/YooGeOh]

Really got people by the balls with this "two party" system

[u/HauntedPickle0903]

Like nails on a chalkboard 

[u/TheMoralityComplex]

No.

[u/GallowBarb]

Ranked choice voting would fix this problem.

[u/Global_Adagio_25]

Nope. Dems can move left or I'm not voting. I don't give a fuck anymore.

[u/Llama_of_the_bahamas → u/Global_Adagio_25]

I understand your logic. What’s the point of voting for a party that wants to return to the status quo when that status quo is the reason we’re in this fucking mess in the first place.

[u/Scared_Medium6097 → u/Global_Adagio_25]

There are people who are depending on you to vote Democrat who do not have the right to vote.

[u/Prestigious-Elk6959]

I hate vote shaming, that turns away more voters. And tbf we saw both parties (some in court) tell us that our vote is greatly appreciated but not the deciding factor in who wins the primaries if the political party itself feels someone else is better.

[u/Jesta23]

This compromise is why the left has steadily drifted right. 

They know they can take a little more each time because of this. 40 years of compromise after compromise is what’s led here. 

[u/MYESANCHEZ588]

True and get rid of the electoral college

[u/Patlick]

More dipshits falling for the lie that third party votes lost dems the election. They didn't matter in any of the swing states. People just didn't vote.

[u/LeTronique]

Most of the modern world: We have tons of political parties for a ton of varying principles! We also used ranked voting.

The USA: We have one party pretending to be two parties. If you vote for any other party, you hate democracy. Also, a small cabal of mostly old dudes can void your popular vote. We’re so free.

[u/khotaykinasal]

Lmao same old song and dance every 4 years. THIS TIME IS EXISTENTIAL!

It wasn't existential the last 24 times but it is now.

[u/burnermemeaccountlol]

Blaming it on capitalism isn't really the right target for what she's talking about

Capitalism doesn't necessitate liberal first-past-the-post two-party non-representational democracy. The issue she's talking about isn't "capitalism", it's a voting system issue.

Ranked choice voting + funding reform are the commonly propsed solutions, but even those are really tame. Could be a stepping stone toward further reform, though.

[u/Strictlystyles → u/burnermemeaccountlol]

Exactly. People seem to think that not voting or voting a different way is going to promote any type of change. It’s actually a net negative. We may not love every candidate but the left at this time, is the only party that will advocate for any type of change. And that kind of change is not something that happens overnight.

[u/indolent08]

Who in their right mind calls the US Greens "leftists"? They're deeply connected to Russia and Republicans. Jill Stein basically comes out every four years just to make Democrats' lives harder.

[u/Llama_of_the_bahamas → u/indolent08]

No one does, this chick used a terrible “example”.

I don’t know a single leftist that has voted for Jill Stein.

[u/captaingrabma]

And that is why the US should get rid of the Presidental democratic system. And instead the US should adopt the Parliamentary democratic system, like most european countries have.

[u/Academic-Snow9642]

Coming from a country with more than two parties, I don't understand why a third party isn't more successful in Congress. I get why not for President, but why not Congress? Bernie has been doing it for decades. They could caucus with the Democrats but still be a left-wing influence in voting.

[u/vizslasocks13 → u/Academic-Snow9642]

The reason is game theory. The US presidential office is a singular prize that creates a Winner v. Challenger dynamic. Coupled with majority-rule districts in congress, you always get a Winner v. Challenger situation. The system enforces itself based on the rules. The aim is absolutely deliberate. However, there is no one person or group that prevents a third party. There are two "slots" in the American system. There can be no more than 2. You can usurp one, and put another party in it's place. That is definitely possible. But there can only be two total. Given the differing outlooks across a broad swath of issues, those two slots have been filled by a conservative party and a centrist liberal party. The reason the Democrats hate the Green Party so much is because, if the Green Party ever really gets popular, the existence of the Democratic Party is at risk.

[u/Yctnm → u/vizslasocks13]

the Democrats hate the Green Party so much is because, if the Green Party ever really gets popular, the existence of the Democratic Party is at risk.

This is an odd categorization. Democrats hate the Green Party because they are controlled opposition designed to split the vote in favor of Republicans and have no qualms being in bed with foreign interests. See Jill Stein and Michael Flynn seated with Putin.

[u/Silient_Qiller → u/Academic-Snow9642]

They do win sometimes in Congress. The issue is some people just aren’t realistic. If polls says 3rd party gonna need a hail mary to win, its best going with one of the 2 major parties

[u/Academic-Snow9642 → u/Silient_Qiller]

Well yeah I don't believe in wasting my vote either but there have to be more progressive congressional districts that would elect a Green or independent. Or is Bernie's the only one?

[u/Silient_Qiller → u/Academic-Snow9642]

There definitely are, I believe the district I’m in would’ve voted 3rd party because we are sick of the rep we have now but unfortunately the candidate we had decided to give up

[u/pan-re → u/Academic-Snow9642]

Lieberman was an I for a while. It’s that the house and senate no longer work for the population. It needs to be thought out better. Republicans came up with fascism to keep power. That’s a bad solution, but the only one being proposed at the time. Dems like Schumer and Jeffries are not the answer either. You can’t have people like Fetterman, or any Dems voting with Republicans nationally. State by state it’s a whole other pile of shit too.

[u/elduche212 → u/Academic-Snow9642]

Funding. Ironically you've given the reason for Bernie as well; he's been doing it for decades. He has enough funding/exposure because of that decades long legacy.

Edit: tbf funding rules having changed drastically since the time Bernie got elected is what I think you're looking for.

[u/sammy_anarchist → u/Academic-Snow9642]

Billionaires fund massively influential propaganda machines that lock the collective into thinking in terms of Red Vs. Blue. I can't speak for other nations who's political systems I'm not super familiar with, but here, the system is set up so that corporations can get directly involved in politics and how the nation's perception of government is shaped.

[u/FOUROFCUPS2021 → u/Academic-Snow9642]

Because we do not have a parliament.

In a parliamentary government, you can have a ton of parties, because coalitions of parties are needed to elect the prime minister. So, you can have small, medium, and large parties on all kinds of spectra, but they need to band together to get a majority to elect the PM. They can have their niche and fringe views, but their votes will still be needed for coalitions to elect the PM.

There is no way to do that in American politics on the federal level.

We have Congress and the Electoral College, and every state counts the electoral college votes differently. But, most are winner take all. Only two have proportional distribution of electoral college votes.

Even if we had direct democracy by popular vote, if there were more than two parties, the vote would just get divided, and the person who "won" would probably be the person the least number of people out of the total voted for, versus those who did NOT vote for them. We could try weighted voting, but again, we have the Electoral College, which gives each state a certain number of "votes" based on population towards a total needed to win.

As I said, these are winner take all in 48 states. So, if there were a bunch of parties, the winner would get all the votes in one state. But what if there are four or five candidates who win various states? There is no way this would work. You have to have 270 electoral college votes to win, so they cannot be distributed so much that the winner has less than this, based on our Constitution.

Your system is I am sure a parliament. That would be as if the members of our Congress voted on who became president. Even countries that have a prime minister and a popularly voted in president, usually one is more powerful, and that is the prime minister. The president is either more symbolic, or will actually step down if the parliament does not have full confidence in the president.

Editing to add that regarding Congress:

Congress does have more than two parties. Many members of Congress are independents or members of smaller parties. For areas where people cannot send voting members of Congress, such as Puerto Rico, they have other parties, because their candidates are not competing (edit: I really mean participating) in the two party system.

Regarding Congress, most people participate in the two-party system because the state systems are set up to serve the electoral college. We do not have the function of the Congress electing the president, and we do not have a prime minister.

Because only a two-party system is feasible in electing the president, and each state has its own party apparatus, rules, and laws for governing itself, managing elections, etc., every state is a feeder for parties sending candidates into the roles of governor of the state, member of Congress, or other high level official. These are the people who will run for president. So, by the time someone is in a position to run for president, they need to be in one of the two parties that are required for the Electoral College system of picking the president to work mathematically, because they start their careers at the local state level.

If you do not care about running for president, you can freely be a part of a smaller party. Yet, because the whole party system is so entrenched, it is a lot easier to work within it.

Bernie Sanders is an independent when he is in his role as a U.S. senator, but switches to being a Democrat when he runs for president, for these reasons.

Editing again to add:

And MOST members of Congress want to run for president! They are all ego maniacs who think they can be president, lol. If more of them did not think they could be president, there would probably be more smaller parties. This is just my personal take, though, I have no proof of this!

[u/Pete0730 → u/Academic-Snow9642]

It's how elections in the United States are structured. Single-Member-District, First-Past-The-Post voting means only one seat per district. So it works like this:

Say candidate A has 40% of the vote. Candidate B has 30%. Candidate C has 30%. If everyone voted their preference, candidate A would win, and voters for candidate B and C have no representation, despite being the majority. It's therefore rational for them to pool their votes around one consensus candidate and win the election. It's irrational behavior to stick to their preferred candidate.

European countries often have Multi-Member-Distict, Proportional Representation, which means a district might contribute to multiple seats. In that setting, you could vote for your preferred candidate, lose out on the plurality in your district, and still contribute to a proportion of seats awarded in the legislature based on national proportions of the vote. You'd still have some representation

America will always have a two party system until we change our voting structure. Check out Duverger's Law for more info

[u/dalligogle]

Voting blue no matter who tells the party they can nominate anyone no matter how bad and you'll still reward them with your vote. They have no incentive to ever nominate someone further left. Voting blue no matter who is the problem.

[u/nerdslife1864]

The people who rather not vote than vote dem are people who only spam slow heavy attacks because “the pokes don’t do enough damage per hit” in fighting games.

Heavy attacks also don’t hit anything. You have to land hits to chain together combos. Help us combo!

[u/Responsible-Tap-3748]

No one yelling at me has ever changed my mind on an issue related to my values.

[u/Reasonable-Ad1876]

Ewww

[u/Girth_Brooks_1969]

The two party system "being the only way" is the gun to your head. It's a threat. That's why the propaganda mantra "voting 3rd party is throwing away your vote" became a slogan.

Being a leader is never as easy as being a follower.

[u/Few_Beginning_1885]

Fuck that. Earn my vote. False dichotomy bullshit.

[u/SaintsRequiem]

But here’s the thing with this. Trump supporters broadly speaking never thought of him as the “lesser of two evils” they legitimately supported him and felt confident about him as a presidential candidate, why is it we have to choose the lesser of two evils for democrats? Honestly the last time the democrats had a candidate like that was (and this is regardless of how feel about what he did) was Obama. Like why is it democrats have to choose an “I guess you’ll do” type of candidate?

[u/StringerBell34 → u/SaintsRequiem]

Trump supporters are liars. They voted for him FOR the racism; they just can't admit that. So they pretend they have apprehensions about some of the things he does, but in reality they DON'T. As long as he keeps the racism up, they're ok.

This is why even the people who claim they're not happy with Trump they all say they still wouldn't have voted for Kamala.

This country is deeply racist and MAGA is getting EXACTLY what they wanted.

[u/Strange_Equipment_45 → u/StringerBell34]

And sexism. Beat Hilary, lost to Joe, beat Kamala. Would’ve gotten crushed by Barack

[u/SpookyWeaselBones → u/SaintsRequiem]

This is like asking why you have to pee in the potty when babies get to pee wherever 

[u/Optimal-Kitchen6308 → u/SaintsRequiem]

many moderate republicans did in fact see him that way you just don't know any it would appear; and the reason dems always have "I guess you'll do" is because they're picky which is exactly what she is talking about

[u/laosurv3y → u/SaintsRequiem]

Their standards are lower. Why is the confidence of evil people who mostly want to inflict pain a reasonable measure against people who see a multitude of possibilities to do good?

[u/Master-Chapter-8899 → u/SaintsRequiem]

This is just factually not true. Trump pulled a ton of centrist votes in 2024. There are also more “I’m not a fan of trump but I’ll never vote blue” people than there are MAGA. If you don’t think that’s true you either live in the sticks or don’t go out much.

[u/Rightintheend → u/Master-Chapter-8899]

And a lot of Democrats, and centrists that would have voted possibly for kamela. Just never voted. They literally stayed home.

[u/WisconsinIsCold → u/Master-Chapter-8899]

This 100% “I don’t agree with stuff trump does or say either but I’m sure as shit not voting for the libs”. I hate it so much but it’s literally so many people

[u/thavillain → u/Master-Chapter-8899]

A lot of "Independents" vote right...they just want to be publicly associated with them...see Libertarians.

[u/TreatOnMeLotsActualy → u/SaintsRequiem]

But here’s the thing with this. Trump supporters broadly speaking never thought of him as the “lesser of two evils” they legitimately supported him and felt confident about him as a presidential candidate

You are making a *huge* assumption here that really isn't true. Trump only won 44.9% of the Republican primary vote. Compare that to other Republican candidates:

• Mitt Romney in 2012: 52.1%
• McCain in 2008: 46.7%
• George W. Bush in 2000: 62.0%
• Bob Dole in 1996: 58.8%

Trump was disliked by a *majority* of Republicans in 2016. I know looking back it seems like it was a landslide, but it was not at all. TONS of Republicans hated Trump. Hell, there's an entire cottage industry of former Republican political staff who make it their day job to criticize him and rally support against the Republican Party.

why is it we have to choose the lesser of two evils for democrats?

Because voting for your personal favorite candidate in a general election, which almost always ends with one of two people being elected due to our election system, doesn't make sense, because the odds of your favorite candidate winning the primary are generally small. You choose your favorite candidate in the primary, and if they don't win, you vote for the next closest thing, and then try to get your preferred candidate to win the primary in the next election.

If you don't vote for the "closest thing/lesser of two evils" in the general election, you are MUCH more likely to get the *opposite* of your views elected, which doesn't help you at all.

[u/Monstarrzero → u/SaintsRequiem]

Bernie was close and then they fucked him over for….Hillary Clinton!????

[u/Subject-Lettuce-2714 → u/SaintsRequiem]

Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris were both amazing candidates. What are you even talking about? Falling for republican/leftist brain rot slander of our Liberal queens?

[u/TheTapeTech]

Progress does not come from accepting the least a politician can offer you. Revolutionaries are the ones that push the country forward.

Martin Luther King was HATED when was a alive and leading and if we only accepted the lesser of two evils, Martin would have told black folks just to vote for the friendlier white supremacist instead of encouraging them to fight. Martin needed figures like Malcolm because militant people scared liberals into listening to less militant folks like Martin.

You guys really really REALLY want to silence militant leftists but just know, you wouldn’t get shit done without them/us. It’s literally written in the books.

[u/Crustymix182 → u/TheTapeTech]

Voting and fighting for a cause aren't the same thing. Voting is resigning yourself to the choices available. Fighting for a cause is a whole other thing, and we should all do both.

[u/Message_10 → u/TheTapeTech]

She was talking about voting. No one voted for Martin Luther King, because he wasn't running for office. This discussion is about voting for someone who may not meet all your stated wishes but defeats your political enemies, and how it is unbelievably important to vote for imperfect candidates who move the ball forward, and not throw your vote away, thereby empowering people who will embrace fascism.

[u/ScarpMetal → u/TheTapeTech]

You can do both though, it takes such minimal effort to vote against MAGA, and then you can spend the rest of the year being revolutionary. I hate that leftists tie themselves into knots to justify not voting.

[u/ragazzzone → u/TheTapeTech]

Lets do both. It takes literally 5 seconds to mail a ballot. Vote and then keep it pushing and do your militancy. Black people died by how many numbers for the right to vote. She's right that progress in AMERIKKKA is disgracefully slow and it is a mockery of democracy. But objectively better to not have Trump/MAGA in power.

[u/ateam1984]

Third Party did not cause Donald Trump. The two parties are the ones that prevent third parties and they cooperate with each other on this.

[u/Homologous_Trend]

On the other hand, in the primaries, vote far left. The Democrats need to get the message that appealing to the centre right is not the way to gain votes.

[u/Glittering-Duck-8533]

Yea doesn't matter how far-left we are we pretty much have to vote for the lesser evil if we want any kind of stable economy and country.

[u/Critically_Political]

Literally screaming. Especially as Black people. We can’t play this third party or “both sides are the same” game because we stand to lose the most.

It pissed me OFF hearing Black people sitting out of the 2024 election because they hated one thing about Kamala. Now look at what we got.

[u/tugboattommy]

My face every election for the same reasons

[u/Nkosi868]

I won’t vote third party while the Democrats are still somewhat viable.

Telling people how to vote is exactly why we have only 2 options. Vote with your beliefs in mind and let others do the same.

[u/ZestycloseSelf3519]

Americans don’t understand that the reason why the world is turning away from you guys isn’t because you have a fascist party, but because the fascist party is literally one of two options. And what’s worse, is that the party that’s supposed to be the opposition literally does nothing to oppose them even when they do have power. The only way I can see the world trusting the US again the in the future is if you either become a one party state like china or just bite the bullet and start meaningfully building up more than two parties. Otherwise y’all are just gonna be staving off fascism every election cycle from here on out and that just not a reliable country to call a friend. 

[u/DeadRunSignal000]

Smart woman

[u/Upstairs-Ad-430]

PSA: Too much caffeine can impact your mood and behavior.

[u/petalmasher]

You don't have to vote for third party to shift the Overton window in the direction you'd like. Just up with a far right then. They went from John McCain and Mitt Romney to Donald Trump.

[u/MonikaDoll]

She's correct.

[u/kiwicollins]

It's almost like manolothizing an entire group of people is incredibly oversimplifying to the point of near- malicious misinformation.

[u/twilight-actual]

This is why we need ranked choice voting as the law of the land.

[u/Shagggadooo]

False.

[u/Ok-Consideration716]

I usually like her, but this is a trash take

Edit: this is also why I don’t call or consider myself a “leftist”; I fully embrace being a Communist, and I think that’s what makes the big distinction that really matters.

[u/Turkish_retreat]

Real leftists know that the Best thing you can do is simply refuse to participate in bourgeois democracy. Yeah guys, don't vote. For political reasons. That's what the cool kids are doing. Your politics should be that of a radical and a revolutionary. Be out in the streets, always seek out direct action, that's where the real change actually happens. After all, there's no Real difference between the two major parties. They're both capitalist, and there's no other factor worth considering.

/s, by the way. But if you are a communist, don't vote I guess. I don't really care. Your thought pattern should be studied, though.

[u/ACAB_4_Cutie_]

Vote in the primaries (where they admit in court they rig) and then fall in line after all your demands are thwarted.

That’s democracy. Wish more people understood.

[u/Happy_Fox6434]

You can yell this from every rooftop in the entire country until you are blue in the face. Americans are just too fucking stupid now to do anything to reverse their own countries demise. And I am talking about both sides (or three).

[u/ateam1984]

Third Parties did not give us MAGA and Trump

See the data right here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BlackPeopleofReddit/s/l46egmcZ6m

[u/atsunatsu]

Until we abolish the majority 2-party system, voting for a 3rd party is THE DUMBEST SHIT YOU CAN DO.

[u/Admirable_Dirt_2371 → u/atsunatsu]

That is about the dumbest thing I've ever read. "The only way to get rid of the two party system is to continue voting solely for one of those two parties".

[u/FigmentGuy → u/Admirable_Dirt_2371]

Exactly

[u/axp187]

Didn’t know that anti-genocide is now equivalent to “perfection”

[u/ifUSeeMeTakeYourMeds]

meanwhile, voting for compromised democrats has done nothing but feed the political ratchet.

[u/BadFish7763]

All that to say "I'm a liberal."

[u/Scary_Audience_3324]

Annnnnd that’s how we got here. So much progress from up on high. Lesser of 2 evils results in progressively more evil. Briahna Joy Gray can articulate this better than I can- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bad-faith/id1531192509. A system is defined by what it does and this one is designed to launder your tax $.

[u/TonyStarksLeftACL]

The dumbest shit you can do is vote for a party who keeps pushing to the right rather than appeal to the base on the left. elections can be won with the tent the Dems have.

the plan is to vote for neoliberal republicans from the 1990s? Thats the plan?

The idea that we’re stuck is reductive and anti revolutionary. This is a “center left progressive view” one step from the “altruism” bullshit rich oligarchs push now.

If they’re genuine then they’re so naive it hurts. Gavin is closer to Trump than he is to the left.

[u/Epyon214]

"I know he's an Israeli supporter" and then proceeds to vote against her interest anyway

[u/JojoTheWolfBoy]

The reason third parties have never won is because people such as this person are terrified to break the cycle by voting for a third party. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy because we make it that way. If enough people buck that trend, then we end up killing off the binary choice that we're forced into every two to four years.

[u/No-Ad4706]

Don’t let Gavin be the nominee. He is a douche. In fact the state employees are going on strike next week because of him. When inflation was 9%, state employees got a 3% raise. They also got 5 hours a month taken from their checks.

But if he is the nominee I will be forced to vote for him. This video is 100% correct

[u/Sonoran_Ghosts_81]

Naw fuck that. We’re rolling with the DSA and taking over the liberal capitalists. Two right wing parties does nothing for the working class.

[u/Mysterious-Tie7042]

I get this and I agree on today's big elections, but this mindset is unfortunately so loud during the primaries too, and we see many of these "leftists" advocating for a corpo, zionist candidate while repeating this mentality. I don't think the third party mindset should apply to the big ticket positions, but posts like this just give the democratic party an excuse to degrade themselves further. I don't blame people who have family in Palestine or other middle eastern countries when they don't want to vote for someone who is at Israel's beck and call.

[u/bluehoag]

Would love to know what "get anywhere" means for this person.

[u/CronkinOn → u/bluehoag]

She looks pretty damned young (and yells like a young person who thinks they got it all figured out), so I'm guessing she hasn't lived through the pattern of "2 steps forward in social progress, which gets erased in 4-8 years, and 3 steps backwards in everything-economic for everyone earning less than 7-figures."

Wonder if she'll have a different opinion, or be more jaded, after watching it unfold for a few decades in real time.

[u/RaWolfman92]

True.

[u/ballantyne287]

"we will never get anywhere". Just like Gavin's highspeed rail. Hahahahahah.

[u/AggravatingGuess6390]

Yeah this is why I say I'm pro black also voting won't save you

[u/Qcconfidential]

We’re never getting anywhere anyway lol.

[u/tv_ennui]

There's a difference between participating in harm-reduction voting when it's time to vote and insisting that everyone agree, out loud, to participate in harm-reduction voting years before the election even happens.

If I say "Sure I'll vote for [insert bad candidate here] instead of [worse candidate here]" 4 years before the election, I'm just giving the game away. Even if it might be true.

[u/streetgainer_]

Politics will drive you insane indeed

[u/Massive-Lime7193]

Leftists dont like Jill Stein

[u/RAD_Sr]

In her hypothetical three-way race was Jill Stein supposed to be "perfection????"

[u/Kinnyee]

We understand but if another candidatel like mayor Mamdani and the party goes behind good people who will lead us way from say chuck shumer And candidates that's been in politics for 40 years needs to go. We need new blood is what we're saying and we love Newsom

[u/linklen2000]

I am liberal but I would never vote Democrat again unless they figure themselves out

[u/OMJuwara]

And this thinking is why third party candidates never win

[u/karmaceuticaI]

No leftist is voting Jill Stein tf.

Also, I wish some of you would just try to give socialist theory even a chance.

It is my contention that a contributing factor to us not seeing any progress to black liberation, or any real progressive progress is because we forget that there's a need to after elections.

If we started from the bottom up community>local elections>State then we'd have more progressives or at least progressive ideas getting pushed.

I don't think this current two party system will get us any closer to realizing black liberation especially since citizens united was overturned, but also because both parties are really just two forms of republicans. Anywhere else on earth democrats here would be considered republican.

Still, I participate hoping for change, and planning for something else. I'm creating and participating in local socialist, and communist, and community outreach orgs, all while working towards getting dual citizenship elsewhere.

[u/thelunarunit]

My problem with this is when are you to expect change in the candidate. This sounds great if you are only looking at one election cycle. Its horrid if you look beyond that. If the candidate has no incentive to be better because the other is a turd, no change will happen.

Its better to lose an election cycle to evoke actual change in who represents you. When candidates become entitled to your vote there is no incentive to do anything while in office. I would argue Donald Trump is more a result of do nothing politicians like Newsom then people realize. The more nothing changes the easier it is for people like him to get elected.

[u/outsidehere]

Maybe don't give up on a good candidate being nominated years out. Some of y'all have already resigned to Gavin Newsom being the presidential candidate. Why not look at an actually good candidate instead of giving up years before the primary even begins? Like how long are y'all going to wait to do the lesser evil thing? 2028? 32? 36? 40? Forever?

[u/Ok-Interview-8478]

I'm a leftist. I recognize that what I want will never be on the ballot. But that doesn't mean I can't use the ballot to prevent as much harm as possible. So I'm gonna go ahead and do that. Why not use every single tool at our disposal? Voting for the lesser evil is fine as long as that's not the ONLY thing you do, and expect it to work.

Democrats are cancer, but republicans are a hemorrhaging chest wound. If you go into the ER with a chest wound, they're not going to be like "hold up, can we wait on stopping that bleeding? We need to talk to an oncologist and figure out the plan for this patient's chemo." We can figure out what to do with about the milquetoast center-right democrat party after we've dealt with the literal fascists.

In other words, if it's 1933 Germany, I'm voting for whoever can beat the nazis. Sorry not sorry. It's easier to organize under the neoliberal weimar republic than under a fascist dictatorship.

[u/setut]

This is why the US needs preferential voting.

[u/orange_medusa]

People will say this and then forget that slavery only ended in this country because in 1844 and 1848 3-4% of the country put their foot down and voted for third parties that supported abolition. The Liberty and Free Soil parties didn't cow to the duopoly, they showed up and spoiled the Whigs again and again until that party dissolved and re-constituted as the abolitionist Republicans. I'll vote Green again and again, because they're the only socialist party in this country. Any coward who claims to be anti-capitalist while supporting the fascism-lite "democratic" party is a class traitor. So many of you will claim it's impossible without ever trying, and you'll wonder why things never get better.

[u/Hopeful_Permit_7624]

Er mah gerud, let me putting coins in this game i keep losing

[u/SteveVerino]

How's that progress workin' out for you. Democrats are a controlled opposition party funded by the same corporate class as the fascist GOP. They are good cop / bad coppin' American citizens.

[u/La_Maraviglia]

100% correct.

[u/Amazing-Heron-105]

I love this woman. She's 100% correct.

[u/Celtic_Macaw]

Did you guys learn nothing from Fred Hampton, Malcom X, and Angela Davis?

[u/Necessary_Screen_673]

"i hate calling myself a leftist" is all I needed to hear. dont call yourself a leftist if you arent a leftist. If you are a liberal, just say you are a liberal. its pretty easy, actually.

Crazy how the solution to "change" society is following the status quo. "look at whats happened so far! we cant change society until we have already witnessed society change on its own!"

[u/mdwatkins13]

[u/FallingDiscontent]

Does this lady realize that if literally every single person that voted for Jill Stein in 2024 voted for Kamela, that Kamela still would have lost to Trump. This isn't some 3rd party stealing all the votes issues. This is a broken party that can't platform a decent candidate to save our lives!