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This is my second rewatch of Angel. First as a real adult lol. And the entire time I was rewatching, I was thoroughly enjoying myself, but was dreading this episode... The arrival of Illyria. Which means the departure of... And it's just as bad as I remember it. I don't understand why they went that route! Why they had to kill my girl? Why they wrote Gunn to make that choice? That entire storyline pissed me all the way off the first time I watched it and here I am, pissed again. I don't remember how the story ends. But I distinctly remember getting to this part of the series and being sour/disappointed/annoyed/sad/pissed off and don't remember it getting better. 😭

Just wanted to share my sorrow.

Throughout the episode, Lorne recounted the events of "Spin the Bottle". The final scene was deeply sad, revealing that he was all alone at Caritas, there was no audience to listen to him, as he realized, with a sense of melancholy, that by using the memory spell on Cordelia, he had set in motion the chain of events that led to Jasmine's arrival on Earth and Cordelia's death.

I was considering where in the timeline Lorne might have delivered that monologue, and i believe it must have been after the episode "Origin" in Season 5. Logically speaking, once Jasmine appeared, Lorne became her servant and wouldn't have had the time to recount such a story, furthermore, he mentions Connor in his tale, and we know that, for the first half of the season, he couldn't have remembered Connor due to Cyvus Vail's spell. Looking at it rationally, he must have told the story after "Origin", once Wesley destroyed the Orlon Window and the memories of Connor resurfaced. As we know, Jasmine's arrival on Earth contributed to Connor's spychological breakdown, forcing Angel to agree to work for Wolfram&Hart a decision that set off a chain of events ultimately leading to Fred's death. This explains the profound sadness Lorne expresses in his monologue from "Spin the Bottle". Through the memory-altering spell, Lorne inadvertently set in motion the events that led to the deaths of both Cordelia and Fred.

What are you going to sing? WARNING: Lorne WILL be reading your aura. Me: 'Perfect Day' by Lou Reed.

What are you asking him to sing? 'We Don't Need Another Hero' by Tina Turner would be my request.

What do I do now :(

I can’t believe cordy wasn’t in the last season, I really thought she was coming back and she looked so amazing too but then she left after one episode.

I find it weird that angel was still pining for Buffy at the end of the series after him and cordy got close.

Also, Fred dying was heartbreaking. And then Wes. I can’t believe it. 😭 did they really have to destroy her soul? I like to think that they’re together in the afterlife anyway, even if I wasn’t the biggest fan of their relationship.

The last few episodes and plotline seemed really strange, it feels like it should’ve gone on for longer. And the last scene.? what am I supposed to think? Everyone is just dead? It happened so abruptly.

One of the biggest things for me in their relationship was when Wes tried to burn her contract. He was ONLY there for Lilah and it wasn’t about trying to “save” her. It was about trying to give her some peace from her suffering. How beautiful is that???

Also, there was something Alexis said at Slayercon back in 2004, saying Lilah’s been a flame in his heart for a long time. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO INTERPRET THAT? THAT IS JUST SO BEAUTIFUL.

Partial Quote:

The relationship with Lilah is a very powerful one that comes in a very interesting time in each of the characters. It had inherent in that relationship the struggles that Wesley is going through as he's kind of descending into this darker area. Of course it's perfect that the person that he sees very clearly at that time is Lilah, and the person he can't really quite be [with?] because he's not really right for her yet even though she's been the flame in his heart for a long time.”

Sorry for being a menace on this Sub. The last Wesley/Lilah post got me going and I had to scream about them for a second.

What's in this Post comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.

What's happening in the screensh0ts:

01 Fred upon seeing Spike's return after he was gone for days; 02 Fred after Spike flirts with her; 03 Fred after Spike says he's leaving LA;

Spike/Fred had been having at least a flirtation or whatever. Fred's wanting to save Spike rather than call Willow and have Willow save Spike. Fred's not seeming to mind that Spike may have seen Fred's wet naked body. Fred in "Destiny" (A 5.08) seems jealous upon learning that Harmony's having sex with Spike. And after Spike is corporealized, Harmony is the first woman Spike sees who he'd be interested in. The storytelling seems that Spike and Fred were at least attracted to each other and at least somewhat interested in each other. But Amy Acker never had on-screen romantic or sexual chemistry with any of the men in Angel. Though, on-screen romantic and sexual chemistry is actually relatively very rare. The Buffyverse simply had it with multiple pairings: Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Xander (arguably), Spike/Drusilla, Buffy/Spike, Xander/Cordelia (arguably), Buffy/Faith, Willow/Spike, Spike/Harmony, Spike/Faith, Willow/Fred (arguably), Fred/Harmony (arguably)

-----

After Harmony suggests that Fred and she hang out, it seems Fred takes Harmony to a hip bar or hi bar/restaurant. And has them sit at a table together drinking alcohol.

04 Fred after Harmony insults Fred's boob size; 05 Fred after Harmony insults Fred's boob size; 06 Fred after Harmony insults how Fred dresses; 07 Fred after Harmony insults how Fred dresses; 08 Fred after Harmony says she's not interested in non-vamps; 09 Fred after Harmony expresses interest in a guy at the bar; 10 Fred after Harmony moves to leave Fred; 11 Fred after Harmony moves to leave Fred; 12 Fred before effectively asking Harmony out on a date (literally suggests they "grab some wine; jam to the Dixie Chicks"); 13 Fred after Harmony is leaving the lab; 14 Fred about to call Angel to tell him that Harmony drank a human to de@th

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In almost all other movies and TV shows, Spike/Fred and/or Spike/Illyria could have worked with the level of on-screen chemistry that James Marsters and Amy Acker had. But it wouldn't work in the TV Buffyverse because we have the examples of Spike/Drusilla, Spike/Harmony, and Buffy/Spike.

But if Amy Acker had on-screen romantic and sexual chemistry with James Marsters? It's rather heavily implied that Fred never did anything sexual with Knox. We never even see them kiss and it's never really implied they ever kissed. "Destiny" (A 5.08) could have had Spike see Fred before seeing Harmony. Or seeking Fred. And they could have had sex. Illyria could have still happened. And maybe Spike/Illyria happens.

Some of the writing choices in Angel Season 5 have convinced me Spike was better off at the bottom of the hellmouth.

FTW and I am kinda shook by this episode. That poor demon lol. He said he was ready to go that boy had no soul.

One thing I really appreciate about Angel is how the Jasmine storyline makes me view the earlier seasons differently, especially season 2.

Like Darla's resurrection in season 1 and everything that happens with her in season 2 eventually leads to Connor's birth, which becomes essential to Jasmine's arrival in season 4.

And then there's Skip, who initially seems like a genuinely nice demon helping Cordelia, only for us to find out in season 4 that he was working for Jasmine all along.

Even Holtz, who becomes one of the main villains of season 3, was mentioned back in season 2 before we finally met him. I love little continuity details like that because they make the show's history feel much more established.

Obviously, none of these storylines in seasons 2 and 3 were originally written with Jasmine and Cordelia's season 4 storyline in mind. But I think that's what makes it so impressive. On a rewatch, season 2 almost feels like the beginning of Jasmine's origin story.

It also makes me wonder what the original plans for Cordelia would've been if Glenn Quinn hadn't been written out so early. Would we have ever gotten Wesley, Gunn, Fred and Lorne? Or would Angel Investigations have remained a trio with Angel, Doyle and Cordelia?

Even Doyle feels like such a natural part of the show despite reportedly being a replacement for Whistler, who was originally supposed to fill that role. I've heard conflicting explanations for why Whistler wasn't used, either because of the actor's availability or concerns about Blade already having a character named Whistler.

I've also always wanted to know what the original plans for Connor were supposed to be if Cordelia hadn't been pushed to the sidelines because of Charisma Carpenter being abused and mistreated behind the scenes. Especially since Connor was such a major part of season 3, only for his storyline in season 4 to become so heavily tied to what happened with Cordelia and Jasmine. I can't help wondering how differently things would've played out.

I have my issues with season 4, particularly Cordelia's treatment, but I really appreciate how the writers managed to tie everything together as much as they could. It's interesting how much of the show's history came out of creative decisions and circumstances that weren't necessarily planned, yet somehow it all feels connected.

Amazon, Funko, EE live from Wed.

Long time coming! I love that all these years later we are still getting new products

I think this episode is quite underrated and not talked about enough. But anyway, in this episode, we learn a bit more about Angel's relationship with his father and I think this explain why Angel is so... approval seeking personality wise. When he fed on for the first time, he looks at Darla, like he's looking at her to make sure he's doing it right. You could argue that it's because she's his sire and naturally, she's like his commander but then you go back to Angel with a soul and it's more and more obvious on rewatch how much Angel gets off on the approval of other people. In Buffy, his sole source of approval was Buffy, he was inspired by her to do good and part of his feelings for her were built on that.

Another thing is how Angelus is sooo different from Angel. I think as a human, Liam (the initial human template) had nothing to thrive for in his life. He was pretty much a deadbeat, a womanizer and devoid of puprose, so the demon that took possession of him had so much place to take. Angelus himself is kinda void outside of the vile pain he inflict on other people which give him an edge, something to thrive for, literally.

I find it interesting that out of all four members of the Whirlwind, Drusilla is the only one who never got any kind of redemption arc, especially considering she probably had the most tragic backstory.

Angel spent centuries trying to make up for everything he did as Angelus. Spike eventually got his soul back and became a champion. Even Darla got something of a redemption arc when she became pregnant with Connor and sacrificed herself so he could live.

Meanwhile, Drusilla remained the same murderous and insane vampire we met in season 2 of Buffy.

What makes it even sadder to me is that Liam, William and Darla all willingly became vampires. Drusilla was the only one who never had a choice. She was an innocent young woman who wanted to become a nun before Angelus became obsessed with her, murdered her entire family, drove her insane and then turned her into a vampire after slaughtering the nuns at her convent.

So basically, the only member of the Whirlwind who never wanted to become a vampire was also the only one who never got a chance at redemption.

And I think it's kind of sad how the rest of her vampire family eventually moved on from their old lives while Drusilla was still trying to hold onto the Whirlwind. Angel and Spike became champions, Darla found some humanity through Connor, and Drusilla was still stuck being the person Angelus turned her into.

I don't necessarily think Drusilla needed to be redeemed. I actually like that she remained evil because not every villain needs to become a hero. But I do wish the writers had explored her more, especially on Angel, considering how much of that show dealt with Angelus and his past.